When I do the month chart (CapLunar) for the Fukushima disaster, I get...

Fagan-Bradley: Moon-Venus angular

Krishnamurti: Pluto-Saturn angular

Well, I guess that speaks for itself.

Scorekeeper: FB: 0, Kr: 2

Did the CapLunar for the Alfred P. Murrah bombing...

Fagan-Bradley: Uranus-Neptune-Mars angular

Krishnamurti: Moon angular

Scorekeeper: FB: 1, Kr: 2

Pearl Harbor bombing...

Fagan-Bradley: Venus (exact)-Moon angular

Krishnamurti: Mars-Jupiter-Neptune angular

Scorekeeper: FB: 1, Kr: 3

Tate-LaBianca murders

Fagan-Bradley: Mars-Mercury-Neptune angular

Krishnamurti: Saturn-Moon

(Tie)

Scorekeeper: FB: 2, Kr: 4

Jonestown massacre

Fagan-Bradley: Saturn-Mars-Neptune-Mercury angular

Krishnamurti: Jupiter-Sun-Uranus-Venus angular

Scorekeeper: FB: 3, Kr: 4

Atlantean, why should the entry of the MOON into sidereal Capricorn be significant? I mean, apart from other lunar ingress signs. We know that using Capricorn for the solar ingress has its roots in the winter solstice which is tropical.

I believe that Linchi would suggest using Lunar Phase charts?

Here is an example of why I think we need to take a closer look at the foundation research for the SVP ayanamsa. Unfortunately Cyril Fagan and Donald Bradley died near the beginning of their research. I believe if they were alive today, having studied recent research, that they would change or retract some of their early opinions and writings. We have more sophisticated research these days that relies on recently discovered historical details and mathematical research, if not actual statistics as defined by statisticians.

Quoted from Solunars:

We know where the boundaries are because Cyril Fagan read coffin lids from ancient Egypt and Don Bradley did some huge statistical studies that proved the boundaries, and we know it's the same zodiac used by the Babylonians and Egyptians because historians have dug up sites and tested and published and know where the zodiac is. We can show it's the same zodiac. And then Jim Eshelman has done study after study and keeps accidentally proving the Sidereal zodiac over and over. Used to amaze us. We're getting almost blase about it now.

The other zodiacs, the tropical, various Indian-Hindu, and Chinese, are all attempts to recreate the real zodiac at different times in history because the knowledge of exactly where the zodiac was and how to figure it was lost over time. For instance, the Lahari zodiac puts the star Spica at 0°of Libra. The tropical zodiac is based on the idea that 0°Aries coincides with the vernal equinox.

Posted by Jupiter Sets at Dawn, 18 November 2021 on Solunars

This paper by Nick Kollerstrom is perhaps the most complete summary we have of data on the ancient sidereal zodiac. The article references some of our most recent academic research.

The Star Zodiac of Antiquity - Culture and Cosmos

If you do a Google search for "The Star Zodiac of Antiquity" and click on the highlighted link above, Kollerstrom's PDF article will come up. For some reason there isn't a direct URL to the article. The article has a graph which compares ayanamsa values in horoscopes between Spica and Aldebaran/Antares 15°.

Hello Therese,

Re: Moon ingresses

We can gladly look at Solar ingresses as well! I'd suggest ones where the events happened in the first quarter of the year, so that the yearly chart, the CapSolar, is the quarterly chart (nearest cardinal Solar Return phase chart) as well. If either Krishnamurti or Fagan-Bradley are correct, then that method should almost continually outperform the other in blind tests.

Thank you for the quoted text. By the way it's worded, it appears that it's more bluster (wordy-wishfulness and braggadocio) than substance. ie. as if someone's opinions have been challenged too many times in the past, and now all of that accumulated frustration has to be relieved in a snarky verbal "we already know it all" type rant

Re: "We're getting almost blase about it now."

That should instantly remind one of the scene in Pulp Fiction, where they've just cleaned up the dead body from the car and Jimmie says, "I can't believe this is the same car!" Then Winston Wolf, the Cleaner, says, "let's not start sucking each others' d!(§s just yet."



I agree with you... continual application of scientific methodology and research is the only course that could lead to any fruitful conclusion. Since the quote above implies (indirectly states) that all the necessary research has already been done, (shown through their verbal "victory lap") the doors to progress are locked the very moment any challenging info is being denied merely on the basis it doesn't fit the program...excuse me, Program.

In addition, the person you quoted above does not believe the houses have any inherent meanings, so they're already toting a rightfully-marginalized opinion, from square one; as the evidence countering that opinion is already Himalayan (mountain) sized, yet completely invisible to anyone with a self-imposed myopia.

Any idea worth its weight, invites itself to be challenged!!!

Atlantean wrote:

We can gladly look at Solar ingresses as well! I'd suggest ones where the events happened in the first quarter of the year, so that the yearly chart, the CapSolar, is the quarterly chart (nearest cardinal Solar Return phase chart) as well. If either Krishnamurti or Fagan-Bradley are correct, then that method should almost continually outperform the other in blind tests.

This won’t be so easy as solar ingress charts will be nearly identical except for the Moon. Without really doing much research on them, I question the validity of the sidereal Capricorn ingress for the year. I would suggest rather the monthly solar ingress which (with only a few tests here on Skyscript) Linchi has found just as applicable as the Capricorn ingress. At any rate, I’m very happy that you are open to testing ayanamsas!

I agree with you... continual application of scientific methodology and research is the only course that could lead to any fruitful conclusion. Since the quote above implies (indirectly states) that all the necessary research has already been done, (shown through their verbal "victory lap") the doors to progress are locked the very moment any challenging info is being denied merely on the basis it doesn't fit the program...excuse me, Program.

This has too often been the stance of the remaining astrologers who use the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa. It seems that their ‘research’ has stopped with the writings of Fagan and Bradley from the middle of the last century. I think it’s very significant that based on research both Bradley and Krishnamurti adjusted the Lahiri ayanamsa by six minutes. So there is something interesting going on there.

Any idea worth its weight, invites itself to be challenged!!!

I agree, of course, and too often to have an astrological idea challenged is seen as promoting unnecessary conflict. So astrologers sit nicely in their self-imposed cubicles, and little actual research occurs to test theories and challenge practice. It's very instructive and entertaining to read some of the debates that go on in academic circles.

It would be helpful if you could choose a few events and post the F-B and K monthly solar ingress charts. I know that SVP users have concentrated on the Capricorn ingress, but I and Linchi have found the monthly ingress charts helpful. Also I can go back and re-post the erased monthly earthquake charts that are somewhere here on Skyscript. But you obviously work much faster than I do in my elderly years!

Of course it can be instructive to test both the monthly ingress and the Capricorn ingress for comparison. Linchi has done this once or twice here on the forum with his techniques.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts...

Okay, couldn't go to bed without posting something.

I did the Monthly Ingress charts for the Hiroshima Bombing

Fagan-Bradley: Mercury angular

Krishnamurti: Pluto and Mercury, with Pluto less than a degree off the Asc

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 0, Kr: 1

Aurora Colorado ("Batman") Shooting

Fagan-Bradley: Sun right on Dsc, Mercury by PVL

Krishnamurti: Pluto and Sun

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 0, Kr: 2

Therese
Thanks for the link to Kollerstrom.

I consider myself a neophyte in terms of who's right/wrong on the ayanamsas and you guys have done more research than me on the subject.
But I have a few questions and would like to hear from you on this.

1) The title of the post 'Sidereal Cardinal Points'
Why is it important to link it to the signs (Capricorn, Aries, Cancer, Libra)?
The Tropical Ingresses as I understand are related to the seasons while the Sidereal Ingresses are more tied to the constellations. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about Constellation Ingresses? Which are more than 12 by the way.

2) I have read articles that the ancient Babylonians were using some Fixed Stars like Sirius for the beginning of the Year. Keeping in mind that the Ecliptic conjunction of the Sun with Sirius is like a 'seeding' moment, they also gave great importance on the Heliacal rising of the Stars. For when the Sun crosses a Fixed Star, we cannot see it in the sky, it is in the 'shadow' or 'burned by the Sun' and when it reappears in the sky, it is as if it is emerging from the underworld. What importance do you give to the Heliacal rising in Sidereal astrology?

3) What Fixed Stars indicate that the Sun has entered a new constellation if any?

As always, appreciate your comments and feedback in this matter.

Ouranos

Atlantean wrote:

Okay, couldn't go to bed without posting something.

I did the Monthly Ingress charts for the Hiroshima Bombing

Fagan-Bradley: Mercury angular

Krishnamurti: Pluto and Mercury, with Pluto less than a degree off the Asc

Aurora Colorado ("Batman") Shooting

Fagan-Bradley: Sun right on Dsc, Mercury by PVL

Krishnamurti: Pluto and Sun

Monthly Ingress
Scorekeeper: FB: 0, Kr: 2

Thank you, Atlantean! Krishnamurti is so far approving itself. It would be helpful to know the orbs (degrees from the angles) of the planets you are noting. Those of us using the Kr ayanamsa have done our research!

Looking forward to additional posts from you! Maybe I'm sleepy today, but what is PVL? Also, could you please give the dates and zodiac sign of the ingress for events you are posting? Also the date of the event. Thank you.

I have mentioned this at various times here on Skyscript, but for my work I've modified emphasis on the angles to include very close degrees aspecting the ascendant. For example, if 10 Leo is on the ascendant and Mars is at 9 Capricorn (6th equal cusp), I count that as a signifcant placement.

I have followed the ancient concept of the extreme importance of the ascendant. Actually any equal cusp from the ascendant may be important as all cusps aspect one of the four equal angles. I've found the trine to be important also, which the FB school generally ignores. I haven't checked the MC/IC carefully. Not enough time and energy in my later years.

But it's good to begin with just the angles for planetary conjunctions.

Ouranos wrote:

1) The title of the post 'Sidereal Cardinal Points'
Why is it important to link it to the signs (Capricorn, Aries, Cancer, Libra)?
The Tropical Ingresses as I understand are related to the seasons while the Sidereal Ingresses are more tied to the constellations. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about Constellation Ingresses? Which are more than 12 by the way.

I personally question the use of the ‘cardinal’ ingresses in the sidereal zodiac, as these are traditionally associated with the equinox/solstice cycle. At this time I consider using the Ar/Cn/Li/Cp sidereal ingresses as no more important than the other eight sign ingresses. So I use only monthly ingresses for the month in question.

It’s a common misunderstanding that Sidereal SIGNS are Sidereal Constellations. They are not, and in my opinion it’s a mistake to call the sidereal signs ‘constellations’ which is generally what the FB school has been doing.

The CONSTELLATIONS are star patterns in the sky. The SIDEREAL SIGNS are 30 degree ecliptic segments measured from a specific ecliptic point or stellar point or date. Generally these days we measure the start of a sidereal zodiac (0 Aries) from the date it is believed that the tropical and sidereal zodiacs exactly coincided at the vernal equinox.

This is the basis of the controversy about where the sidereal zodiac begins. The Fagan-Bradley date is 221. The Krishnamurti date is 291. Lahiri is 285. According to Ronnie Gale Dreyer (Indian Astrology: A Western approach to the ancient Hindu art, 1990, p. 53) Hipparchus placed that year at AD 280 which is very close to the Lahiri date and not far from the Kr date. At this time on the forum Atlantean and I are looking at the comparison of 221 (FB) and 291 (Kr) dates.

2) I have read articles that the ancient Babylonians were using some Fixed Stars like Sirius for the beginning of the Year. Keeping in mind that the Ecliptic conjunction of the Sun with Sirius is like a 'seeding' moment, they also gave great importance on the Heliacal rising of the Stars. For when the Sun crosses a Fixed Star, we cannot see it in the sky, it is in the 'shadow' or 'burned by the Sun' and when it reappears in the sky, it is as if it is emerging from the underworld. What importance do you give to the Heliacal rising in Sidereal astrology?

I don’t use Heliacal risings in my work. That is astronomical rather than astrological. Other astrologers may differ in their opinions.

3) What Fixed Stars indicate that the Sun has entered a new constellation if any?

The entrance of the Sun into a sidereal sign is measured from the precise instant that the Sun enters 0°0'0" of a 30 degree sign. The stars don’t enter into it.

As always, appreciate your comments and feedback in this matter.

I have enjoyed your many posts here on Skyscript, Ouranos, but am finding my time so limited these days that I don’t generally reply. Saturn most definitely rules old age. Saturn is very, very s...l....o....w!!