Turning the chart and calculating arabic parts 1 by Dima Gur Just a quick check: When in a horary, you turn the chart, and for some reason you need to know the arabic parts for a turned house. Would you calculate the arabic part from the radix or from the vantage point of the turned house? Example: Say a mother asks about her daughter's future marriage. Do you calculate pars-marriage as ASC+DSC-Venus (radical) Or as 5th cusp + 11th cusp - Venus ? Reference: Frawley in his Horary Textbook advices to calculate for turned houses, when needed. Thanks, D. https://www.gurastro.com Quote Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:10 pm
2 by johannes susato If at all I would take these points, then I would turn the chart, because these are the points for the personel mariage of someone and not general points. Lilly calls the first house of the person in question, here the daughter with the fifth radical house, - literally - the ascendant of the daughter. Her potential spouse is not the DC of the mother, but the opposite house from the daughter's ascendant, so the radical 11th. Quote Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:45 pm
3 by Ouranos Almost all parts (except for a few) are calculated in relationship with the ASC or the Horizon. The ASC is the measure or the starting point not the derived House. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pfa/drea ... slist.html Therefore the ASC no matter what derived Houses you look at is symbolic of the question asked in time and space. If you investigate a question about your daughter (5th House), the Part of Marriage conjunct Venus in the 5th becomes relevant for your daughter at this time and space the question was asked. The 5th is relevant as being the ASC of your daughter but not to calculate a new Part of Marriage for her. The only other formula I have seen different from the measure on the ecliptic (from the Horizon) is the one used by Giuseppe Bezza who also calculates it from the Right Ascension (from the Equator). And they do work also by Right Ascension. Look at the Part of Disease ASC + MA - SA by RA in your chart and I am sure you will find events that could not be explained otherwise. Blessings! Quote Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:07 am
4 by johannes susato Ouranos, the link you have given is of no help in this question, because the problem of turned charts is not a bit treated of there - if I did not clip it. But this quotation from the linked site seems to support my text above: For example, the Part of Marriage may show whether a person seeks or fears marriage; what they desire in a potential marriage partner; the types of experiences they may have as a married person; and the type of partner they will become while married. Indeed, it would be a kind of absurd to seek the marriage partner of the daughter in the marriage house of her mother. Quote Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:16 am
5 by Ouranos I gave the link because not only does it list a complete list of all parts (who knows there may be more!) but also useful links in reading the formulas, calculations, interpretation and sources. Another Quote from the site... "I have used the same technique with horary and solar return charts with very helpful results. As with reading any of the parts, it helps if one has a poetic mind. For example, with horary, I have sometimes seen the part of Air and Wind conjunct a significator when the weather was terribly windy and became part of the story told by the chart, and other times the Part simply showed that the person represented by the significator had more trouble than usual stopping talking." ------------- To sum it up, my understanding is that the Parts should be calculated 'when the question rises' which is represented by the ASC. And as such, the daughter (5th House) in this example is not rising even if it is the main concern of the querent. Blessings! Quote Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:50 pm
6 by Dima Gur Hmm.. Also asked this question in the Horary board of astro.com, and replies over there were split amongst the two camps, just like in here. https://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1664899888 * Too little participation in forums nowadays, compared to FB groups which I tend to dislike My personal take on the subject is calculating parts for turned houses, but I won't say anything to people who choose the radix as a reference point. Just like the house-systems, sidereal vs tropical or many other points of debate. Regarding approach, this is part of the interest in astrology, if you'll ask me. https://www.gurastro.com Quote Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:19 am
7 by Ouranos My personal take on the subject is calculating parts for turned houses, but I won't say anything to people who choose the radix as a reference point. There is nothing wrong in confronting your opinion Dima Gur. That's how we all learn. Conceptually, we can all disagree but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Thanks for the Horary link on astro.com. I love the quote from one participant 'I don't know who Jones (Marc Edmund) is...' Dancing with the stars is a great way to learn to shuffle in our community! Love your questions in the Forum and do not be afraid to voice your opinions. I love hearing what other astrologers think! Best to you, Ouranos Blessings! Quote Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:14 pm
8 by Dima Gur Thanks Ouranos, appreciated. My questions are 'tricky', you can say, as they are motivated by different agendas each and every time. (Must be my Aqua moon) * A topic I think I understand, but I won't mind the confirmation. * Comparing sources and trying to see which approach is most often used "on the ground". * Trying to lure people such as Martin Gansten (or other inspirational contemporary astrologers) to the conversation, LOL I have a few friends who immigrated to Canada, am ever envious of that often mentioned Canadian cordiality, I don't enjoy such luxuries in Israel. Who knows, may meet sometime in an astrology conference somewhere. https://www.gurastro.com Quote Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:20 pm
9 by johannes susato Of course the AC is the representative of the querent. But when the mother asks about her daughter, the teachings of 'turning the chart' give the daughter the radical 5th house as her first (Lilly: her Ascendant, Frawley treats the 5th house as if it were the Ascendant and counts the houses from there). AC and DC as components of the part of marriage concerning the per- sonal partnership of the daughter are obviously not to be derived from the mother and her significators, but from the 1st house of the daughter (the radical 5th) and her 7th (the radical 11th). The core of this question: It is not the marriage of the mother and her spouse that is the subject of this thread's example, but the daughter's, so AC and DC are, in a turned chart, that person's 1st and 7th (turned) house. Quote Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:11 am