kubernetes wrote:I was thinking about Saturn and the concept of multiplicity mentioned in the OP and it occurred to me that this seems contradictory since Saturn is about lack and multiplicity implies abundance. After thinking about it some more I realized that there is probably different kinds of multiplicity. I like to think of it as saturnine multiplicity and jupiterian multiplicity:

Saturnine multiplicity: Split an apple in half, voila! you now have two parts.

Jupiterian multiplicity: Magically duplicate an apple so you now have two apples.

I'm positing that saturnine multiplicity is more about division/separation while jupiterian multiplicity is multiplicative in the truest sense of the word. This is just a random fast and loose heuristic I thought up, but I feel like it mostly works.

Here are a few more contemporary trends related to Saturn:

1.Transhumanism

2.Artificial intelligence

3.Transgenderism

4.Meat analogues

5.Green activism

For points #1-4 the Saturn connection is obvious since the underlying theme is about replication/syntheticness/artificiality.

Point #5 isn't as obvious but when you think about it it makes sense. Green activism is about "saving the Earth", which in a more abstract sense is ultimately a hyper-focus on the realm of matter as opposed to the intangible realm of forms. I think it's not a coincidence that green activism has become such a major ideology during an age of rational materialist thinking.

I think I've mostly covered all the bases about Saturn. The main reason for making this post was to demonstrate that the myriad things associated with age of Aquarius* can all be traced back to Saturn without having to resort to using Uranus.

*I'm probably going to make a separate post about this in the mundane astrology forum but I wanted to point out that technically we're in both the age of Pisces and the age of Aquarius. What I use for determining the great ages is how close the heliacal rising of the Sun (not the Sun itself) is on the vernal equinox to a given constellation. I use the same orb that I use in natal charts for phasis, which is about 15 degrees.

I do feel that you are overloading Saturn's symbolism a bit. He demarks and guards the border; once you are beyond that line - whether in an outwards or in an inwards direction - you are properly speaking in Uranus' realm.

(And it goes without saying that crossing the line isn't always a bad thing. )

As for this:

Green activism is about "saving the Earth", which in a more abstract sense is ultimately a hyper-focus on the realm of matter as opposed to the intangible realm of forms. I think it's not a coincidence that green activism has become such a major ideology during an age of rational materialist thinking.

I beg to differ. While the ecological movement may indeed, to some degree, have lost connection to its spiritual foundations, underlying it, there isn't a materialist ideology, but the concern for the Earth as a living system or entity (often referred to as the Greek goddess Gaîa).

The Earth has a soul the same way all planets and stars have one, and together they constitute the World Soul of Platonic and Hermetic philosophy.

I do feel that you are overloading Saturn's symbolism a bit. He demarks and guards the border; once you are beyond that line - whether in an outwards or in an inwards direction - you are properly speaking in Uranus' realm.

(And it goes without saying that crossing the line isn't always a bad thing. )

The sole basis for points #1-4 is Saturn's tendency to mimic/simulate which is a concept that I derived from Hellenistic era astrological sources. I feel like I'm being reasonable in assigning those phenomena to the influence of Saturn. Where exactly are we in disagreement? As for Uranus, I can't comment since I don't use the modern planets although I respect those who do choose to use them.

As for this:

Green activism is about "saving the Earth", which in a more abstract sense is ultimately a hyper-focus on the realm of matter as opposed to the intangible realm of forms. I think it's not a coincidence that green activism has become such a major ideology during an age of rational materialist thinking.

I beg to differ. While the ecological movement may indeed, to some degree, have lost connection to its spiritual foundations, underlying it, there isn't a materialist ideology, but the concern for the Earth as a living system or entity (often referred to as the Greek goddess Gaîa).

The Earth has a soul the same way all planets and stars have one, and together they constitute the World Soul of Platonic and Hermetic philosophy.

My understanding of the theory of forms is that the only true things are the intangible, eternal forms. Accordingly this physical earth and everything on it is ultimately a material simulacrum of invisible, eternal concepts. Therefore, to care about this earth is to be invested in the material side of the equation, which is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. I get the impression you think that I'm saying the ecological movement is materially greedy or something to that effect when that's not my intended meaning. I only mean materialist in the sense that they're principally concerned with the physical, manifested side of the equation as opposed to the transcendental, unmanifested side of the equation.

To clarify my position, I'm making a commentary on the fact that the irreligious modern world has chosen to make eco-awareness their new, secular religion. The modern, Aquarian age mindset insists on tangible, rational engagement with physical phenomena instead of focusing on intangible, invisible concepts.

kubernetes wrote:

I do feel that you are overloading Saturn's symbolism a bit. He demarks and guards the border; once you are beyond that line - whether in an outwards or in an inwards direction - you are properly speaking in Uranus' realm.

(And it goes without saying that crossing the line isn't always a bad thing. )

The sole basis for points #1-4 is Saturn's tendency to mimic/simulate which is a concept that I derived from Hellenistic era astrological sources.

That surely sounds interesting. What exactly are those sources?

I feel like I'm being reasonable in assigning those phenomena to the influence of Saturn. Where exactly are we in disagreement?

I can follow your explanation for associating Saturn with masks, and it certainly makes sense as far as it goes; in particular with regard to the 'social masks' that people are wearing (as per James' comment). I simply think you are overly generalizing this association, as masquerading can pertain to other astrological archetypes as well.

If we consider the mythology associated with the planetary gods, it would be most of all Zeus/Jupiter who excels at disguising his true identity!

As for Uranus, I can't comment since I don't use the modern planets although I respect those who do choose to use them.

Even though I have the highest respect for the amazing framework of classical astrology (it absolutely provides the timeless foundation for all astrology ever to follow), in my view, the seven traditional planets don't sufficiently cover all areas of life relevant to us today. It's no coincidence that astrology's thematical scope was extended with the discovery of further bodies, starting with the 1781 discovery of Uranus - falling right into the era of Industrial Revolution!

As for this:

Green activism is about "saving the Earth", which in a more abstract sense is ultimately a hyper-focus on the realm of matter as opposed to the intangible realm of forms. I think it's not a coincidence that green activism has become such a major ideology during an age of rational materialist thinking.

I beg to differ. While the ecological movement may indeed, to some degree, have lost connection to its spiritual foundations, underlying it, there isn't a materialist ideology, but the concern for the Earth as a living system or entity (often referred to as the Greek goddess Gaîa).

The Earth has a soul the same way all planets and stars have one, and together they constitute the World Soul of Platonic and Hermetic philosophy.

My understanding of the theory of forms is that the only true things are the intangible, eternal forms. Accordingly this physical earth and everything on it is ultimately a material simulacrum of invisible, eternal concepts. Therefore, to care about this earth is to be invested in the material side of the equation, which is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. I get the impression you think that I'm saying the ecological movement is materially greedy or something to that effect when that's not my intended meaning. I only mean materialist in the sense that they're principally concerned with the physical, manifested side of the equation as opposed to the transcendental, unmanifested side of the equation.

I got you. Earth as the material world; the transient sublunar sphere of the four elements as opposed to the eternal etheric realm of the celestial bodies, and ultimately the "intellectual world" of ideas and archetypes.

And yet, despite our physical bodies, we have an intangible soul - and so do the plants and the animals, and even our planet itself.

The ecological movement may fall short, not acknowledging Nature's immaterial side (as other and earlier cultures did, with their recognition of Ley lines etc.). However, underlying it is a very viable perception of the living Earth as a spiritual entity.

To clarify my position, I'm making a commentary on the fact that the irreligious modern world has chosen to make eco-awareness their new, secular religion.

To some extent, this is true. Not so much for the "Green activism" (as you call it) in its initial stages, though, when knowledge of astrology and the I Ching, meditative practices etc. were still seen as very relevant - but for the form it took in due course.

The modern, Aquarian age mindset insists on tangible, rational engagement with physical phenomena instead of focusing on intangible, invisible concepts.

Actually, the Aquarian age mindset sets out to transcend the very bounderies of physical existence, either by purely technological means (Transhumanism) or by the rediscovery of esoteric science and ageless wisdom. And the latter will gain importance in the mind of many in the years and decades to come.

That surely sounds interesting. What exactly are those sources?

I want to reiterate that I claimed to derive this concept of Saturn representing mimicry from Hellenistic era astrological sources, I never said it was explicitly written out in case you're trying to pull a "gotcha" on me. Below are my sources and reasoning though:

1.In Valens Anthology he associates Saturn with feigned appearances. I'm specifically drawing upon the translation within the book: "Hellenistic Astrology, The Study of Fate and Fortune" by Chris Brennan, which describes this attribute of Saturn on page 171 and has a small paragraph detailing it in the footnotes.

2.In one of Robert Schmidt's astrology courses he mentions that Saturn rules theater, although I don't know the specific source of this attribution. Theater of course is a form of mimicry/simulation. It's quite possible that Schmidt is also drawing from the original Valens significations. The Schmidt courses themselves dive pretty deeply into the myriad platonic considerations of Hellenistic astrology and have heavily influenced my thinking in a systematic way, which is what I'm applying to this particular topic as well. I won't make an appeal to authority but FWIW I hold Schmidt's findings in very high esteem.

3.Leo/Sun represents form and Aquarius/Saturn represents its counterpart matter. Matter is inherently an imperfect simulacrum of the perfect forms. Therefore given this philosophical backdrop Saturn would naturally rule over simulation. Obviously I'm drawing upon the deep connections between Hellenistic astrology and platonism here.

Taking all of the points above (especially #3), it's extremely reasonable to attribute mimicry/simulation to Saturn. Mimicry inherently involves falsity, which is one of the major attributes of Saturn. If the Sun represents truth and realness then by definition Saturn must represent falsity and illusion, from which one can derive many valid meanings from. All of the phenomena I listed in that previous post are jointly occurring to an intense degree during the present age of Aquarius. So not only am I standing on firm ground philosophically but also chronologically too.

If we consider the mythology associated with the planetary gods, it would be most of all Zeus/Jupiter who excels at disguising his true identity!

To my knowledge the mythological attributes associated with the planetary gods don't correlate 1:1 with the astrological symbolism of the planets. I'm relaying what I've heard and my own impressions. Regarding your example, Jupiter is not typically associated with intentional subterfuge (Valens doesn't associate Jupiter with deceit, he does however attribute this to Saturn).

Even though I have the highest respect for the amazing framework of classical astrology (it absolutely provides the timeless foundation for all astrology ever to follow), in my view, the seven traditional planets don't sufficiently cover all areas of life relevant to us today. It's no coincidence that astrology's thematical scope was extended with the discovery of further bodies, starting with the 1781 discovery of Uranus - falling right into the era of Industrial Revolution!

There's a few points here:

1.I deliberately posted this in the traditional and ancient astrology section of the forum so that I could avoid discussing Uranus. Why should I have to talk about Uranus in a thread I dedicated to not talking about Uranus?

2.I 100% disagree with your view about classical astrology being insufficient in a modern context. I've studied astrology for over a decade now and I felt like my astrological skills improved by leaps and bounds when I completely abandoned modern astrology and embraced ancient astrology instead. I have a very dim view of modern astrology. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

3.The Industrial Revolution also correlates with the gradual ingress into the age of Aquarius. I think the ingress into the age of Aquarius is a better explanation for the Industrial Revolution and modernity than Uranus is.

As for this:
I got you. Earth as the material world; the transient sublunar sphere of the four elements as opposed to the eternal etheric realm of the celestial bodies, and ultimately the "intellectual world" of ideas and archetypes.

And yet, despite our physical bodies, we have an intangible soul - and so do the plants and the animals, and even our planet itself.

The ecological movement may fall short, not acknowledging Nature's immaterial side (as other and earlier cultures did, with their recognition of Ley lines etc.). However, underlying it is a very viable perception of the living Earth as a spiritual entity.

We're talking at cross-purposes here. The fact that matter is imbued with spirit doesn't change the fact that green-activism is hyper-focused on the material realm of existence which is Earth (which is not inherently a good or a bad thing, it just is). As a useful contrasting example, some occultists might claim that all is mind and that the material world is ultimately just a shadow in the mind. My point being, just because green-activists are focused on material representations of spirit doesn't mean that they're not spiritual, which is what you seem to be implying I think. There are different modes of acknowledging spirituality and this isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with a heavier focus on the tangible, material world like the kind of green-activists which you describe.

For the record when I was originally talking about green activism I was generally referencing government/corporate level green activism (a la iron fist in a velvet glove) as opposed to more grassroots level green activism which I didn't have in mind when writing that since it's not as relevant these days unlike its more institutional variant.

The modern, Aquarian age mindset insists on tangible, rational engagement with physical phenomena instead of focusing on intangible, invisible concepts.

Actually, the Aquarian age mindset sets out to transcend the very bounderies of physical existence, either by purely technological means (Transhumanism) or by the rediscovery of esoteric science and ageless wisdom. And the latter will gain importance in the mind of many in the years and decades to come.

Transhumanism via technological means is still based in matter (electricity, computer chips etc) which is physical existence. You're incorrect about this. Judging from this and other things you've written, we have extremely divergent interpretations of what constitutes matter and spirit.

If you read through my previous posts ITT then you'll understand the nuanced view I have of the age of Aquarius. I mentioned the resurgence of esoteric science and ageless wisdom in an earlier post in this thread. What I said about the modern Aquarian age mindset was a loose, general statement meant to be interpreted in a specific context which is self-evident in the original passage which you removed in your quote. It was never intended to be interpreted as a standalone statement.

I get the strong impression that you basically want to argue in favor of Uranus explaining many of the phenomena that I've attributed to Saturn. This seems to be the crux of our disagreement. Behind all of our lengthy comments this really comes down to a traditional astrology vs modern astrology argument. I feel as if I'm on strong ground (philosophically speaking) with all the attributions that I've made to Saturn. To my knowledge the same cannot be done for Uranus (most of what's available is highly subjective, anecdotal, relatively recent new age type materials etc etc). This isn't to say that I'm definitely right, but I find it strange that you cast doubt on my philosophically consistent and principled arguments while having such a poorly supported position yourself.

kubernetes

i want to thank you for making this thread and expressing all the ideas you have here.. kudos! i think michael is offering some interesting counter ideas, but i can see how you'd process it all as you have... for me - i have increasingly found the beauty of a system where the outers act like unpredictable agents of change, don't really fit into the system of astrology in any logical or easily defined way... i do think it is possible for saturn to be a lot of things symbolically and the idea of it covering 2 astrological signs also makes sense to me in a number of ways... of course the opposition of leo to aquarius is summed up nicely in the opposing nature of the traditional rulers - sun and saturn here too.. it gets a lot more messy trying to incorporate uranus, which as i said - seems to operate in a more unpredictable way...

i don't think of saturn in this way... in fact, it is more the opposite.. one reaps what they sow and all things eventually come out in the mix... but perhaps the idea of the outers is contained in a wider concept of saturn too.. i don't want to use the word karma, because i think i got in trouble the last time i used that word here at skyscript! but i do beleive saturn does form a type of barrier for the beauty of a structure called traditional astrology and much more.. in fact, i loved the analogy that liz greene gave many years ago in her great book 'saturn, a new look at an old devil' i think it is the full title.... she equated saturn with the story of the beauty and the beast... i think it is a beautiful analogy... cheers james

james_m

I agree with your take on the outer planets. I conceptualize them as working outside of the traditional zodiacal schema, only adding meaning but not replacing anything.

Why did you get in trouble for using the word karma? As a side project I've been working on figuring out if karma can be legitimately demonstrated within a Hellenistic astrological framework. I'm still working on the various pieces but I've found a few interesting things which suggest it's a legitimate concept:

1.Valens says that Saturn is the star of Nemesis. I'm not an ancient Greek scholar and don't know what Nemesis means in this context, but I find it interesting that in ancient Greek religion Nemesis was related to the idea of the distribution of fortune in proportion to one's actions. Hopefully a poster with more familiarity with ancient Greek culture can confirm or deny this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis

This idea is bolstered by the fact that the Saturn ruled signs Libra and Aquarius oppose the signs ruled by the Sun; the Sun represents praxis (actions) according to Valens. Therefore we have a perfect representation of actions and consequence in Hellenistic astrology through the Sun/Saturn axis. It's worth reiterating that Saturn is exalted in Libra, the scales. This too strengthens the idea of justice/karma.

2.The zodiac is a wheel which implies continuity/eternity which in turn suggests reincarnation. If operating from the assumption that Hellenistic astrology is deeply interwoven with Platonic philosophy then the implications of Plato talking about reincarnation in the "Myth of Er" are quite interesting. This is especially interesting in light of the fact that Saturn (ruling forgetfulness) joys in the 12th house. I recall reading that the 12th house rules over conditions before we're born, so Saturn joying in the 12th house could be interpreted as Saturn being the proverbial river Lethe (mentioned in the Myth of Er) that we drink from to forget our old life before incarnating into a new life.

One related point I wanted to bring up is that the joys seem to implicitly refer more to terrestrial, mundane life as opposed to the archetypal world of forms. I base this on the fact that the joys are based on house positions instead of zodiac positions. Apologies if this is already common knowledge, I just brought it up because it's something I recently realized even though it's obvious in hindsight.

I have a few more scattered pieces but my argument hasn't fully congealed yet. Perhaps when it does I'll make a complete post about it