I think that by the time Valens et al becomes directly available in Europe the 'scientizing' emphasis had already taken hold (and there is some blame to be laid on Ptolemy for this ) and most of astrology begins to be rejected in favor of scientific approaches. This, along with anti-Muslim sentiment and the increasing religious intolerance of astrology on both Reformist and Catholic sides made any profit gained from using Valens et al unappealing.

Hello Gabe,

One might argue that Ptolemy remained a refuge for astrologers trying to adapt to the new scientific reductionist paradigm. For example in 17th century England astrologer John Partridge advocated a return to the 'purer' rational astrology of Ptolemy away from its medieval accretions. Morin also attempted a naturalistic reform of his own while still operating from a geocentric model. Its noteable that both these astrologers criticised what they regarded as 'Moorish' superstitions and the so called Arabic parts were an obvious target.

Mark, what and where is this Greenbaum article?

'Calculating the Lots of Fortune and Daemon in Hellenistic Astrology' by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum

I should have said the article is not that recent. You may have it already.
Its from a special double issue of Culture and Cosmos produced in 2008 devoted to Ancient Astrology. It contains articles from Giuseppe Bezza, Robert Hand, Deborah Houlding, Joseph Crane and Dorian Greenbaum amongst others. The articles were presented at a Conference at the Warburg Institute in London in 2007 entitled 'The Winding Courses of the Stars'. I highly recommend the whole issue of Culture and Cosmos to any student of ancient astrology.

http://www.cultureandcosmos.org/Portals ... 01%202.pdf

You can still purchase back issues I believe. Its getting a bit late here but I will post some quotes from the article when I get some time.

Mark

Hi,
Reviving this interesting thread for the sake of trying to understand a very specific point:

I'm doing some experiments with Ptolemy's method of non reversing the formula for part of fortune in night chart.
The thing which interests me is as follows:
If we adopt Ptolemy's approach and we insist on including part of spirit (Daemon) as well, we should probably not reverse the formula for part of spirit as well in a night chart.
Thus, according to this interpretation of Ptolemy's method we should use the following formulas in both a day chart and a night chart:
ASC+MOON-SUN = fortune
ASC+SUN-MOON = SPIRIT

I tried to reread this long thread, got most of it I believe.
The main contribution as it related to my question is Andrew's posts in page 3, in which he notes that Ptolemy didn't use the Part of Spirit at all, and that James Holden's comment on Ptolemy is that Ptolemy used the part of Fortune as the combined influence of both the Moon and the Sun. So there's no need to use Daemon/Spirit, following Holden's understanding of Ptolemy.

What do you think?

Hello,
I am responding but not answering your question...
My take and my practice and Lots of Fortune & Spirit:
1) Both Lots are used and both Lots are different
2) Both Lots are calculated based on the chart sect...hence, reversibility calculation applies.

A curious query:
Have you been consistently successful in using the non-reversible Lot of Fortune? Is this the reason you asked on using the non-reversible Lot of Spirit or Spirit=Fortune?

Sorry... answering (or rather responding) by introducing more questions...

astrojin hi,

I've been using your approach most of the time in recent years, but have stumbled lately upon two charts (of students) who seem to 'work' better with Ptolemy's non reversal approach. Both for Fortune and Spirit, and the two charts are night charts.

Just wondered if anyone else had the same impression.

Hello,

I see... When you say the non-reversed Lots work better (for a nocturnal chart), you mean that the natal delineation of the Lots seem to align to matter and spirit with the non-reversed chart, right? Because Hellenistic astrologers use Zodiacal aphesis (Releasing ) from Lot of Spirit to see the major "turning" of events especially in matters concerning "praxis". Did you check that the releasing from Fortune is more telling for these two charts as well?

Well, if they seem to work in many empirical work, then one would have to reconsider the concept or theoretical framework behind them...

Anyways, the following are some quotes on using one formula for both spirit and matter - don't know whether they apply to your cases:/

Valens (Anthology Book IV, Chapter 4):
Often, then, when the Lord of Fortune or its lord falls amiss (most probably refers to being in aversion), the Lot of Spirit divides both bodily matters and those that pertain to action. Similarly also, Fortune will divide both when the Lot of Spirit or its lord falls amiss, just as for predominations and rulerships.
Whenever Spirit or Fortune should be found in one zoidion, we will take the bodily matters from this very zoidion, but the matters pertaining to action from its post-ascension.
Robert Schmidt, Project Hindsight, 1996

Note that if the Lot of Fortune or its ruler are badly situated, the Lot of Daimon will distribute both the bodily and the active qualities. Likewise Fortune will make the distribution of both qualities if the Lot of Daimon or its ruler is unfavorably situated, and the same is true of the controls and the house rulerships.
Whenever Daimon and Fortune are found in the same sign, we will derive forecasts of bodily constitution from that very sign, but the forecasts of activity from the sign immediately following.
Mark Riley, pdf from his website (https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/)

Serapio of Alexandria – Astrological Definitions
The Fortune of the Daemon is often produced, for whenever the Light of the Sect is in the terms of [a planet] out of sect, or not according to masculine or feminine; for example, by day the Sun in a feminine sign, or by night the Moon in a masculine sign; and whenever the Light of the Sect is not eastern in the hemisphere of the sect. But if both of the Lights [are] in the hemisphere under the earth, and the rest, not in domicile, have [a position] from the prevailing—that is [the] leading Light—to the following one, the Fortune is understood.
]ames Herschel Holden, Porphyry the philosopher, Introduction to the Tetrabiblos and Serapio of Alexandria astrological definitions, Translated from the Greek (2010).

Eduardo J. Gramaglia:
Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.
Eduardo J. Gramaglia originally posted at: www.HellenisticAstrology.com (2013)

I hope to one day return to this thread and share some thoughts on lot theory as presented to us by Hellenistic authors. I share the confusion that many have expressed about the reversal calculation, where this entered into the tradition and why. The lots of the Sun and five traditional planets are also a point of confusion for me; by the time Valens is writing, an entire subsystem of technique involving these lots had developed, but it might be worth asking how these lots came to be and whether they represent a divergence from early lot theory or are an extension of it. I now use Fortune only, without reversals, and I think there's good reasoning for that approach which was laid out in Ptolemy's work.* I'll commit to returning to this thread when I have something tangible to share.

*I know some feel that Ptolemy tried to lay everything in astrology out in a naturalistic, materialistic form, perhaps warping astrology away from more mystical roots. I can't agree with this; it seems to me that astrological theory came out of an early "nature as magic, magic in nature" approach to life. Ptolemy's work comes to us at a time when Greek astrologers were codifying the works, systems and beliefs of peoples they had conquered, and philosophies / theories that did not originate in their lands. It seems to me that Ptolemy's aim was to restore anciently held associations with nature that were innate to Chaldeans / Babylonians / Mesopotamians, rather than attempting to de-mystify or de-magic astrology via a scientific lens.

astrojin hi,

Yes, your understanding of my words is correct. it's what I've meant.

Haven't tried to check those charts using Aphesis / ZR, maybe I should.

So according to the sources given, we should use Spirit interchangeable for Fortune, in a few specific cases. This seem to make the usage of the the fortune-spirit pair even more complex

Thanks for the source quotes.
Eduardo Garmaglia is a translator, isn't he? From which source is that quote given by him?

--

Wade hi,

It's interesting that you use fortune without reversing the calculation for night charts. I've heard of several other leading astrologers who do just that. I think Frawley espouses the same approach.

I'll keep that in mind as I'll continue in my practice henceforth.
Thus far, I usually tended to reverse fortune and spirit's calculation for night charts, but will have to keep an open mind about it, from now on.

I've asked on this FB group a while ago, a similar question, so we have insights from there as well.
The group is very solid, but alas it's poorly moderated. Had to deal with harassment from another member in the group back at the day.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2554634 ... 5004996600

Hello,

Eduardo Garmaglia is a translator, isn't he? From which source is that quote given by him?

Yes. It is the same source as the one before (Serapio of Alexandria). I am just giving two translations of the same reference, one from Holden (the previous paragraph) and one from Garmaglia.

astrojin wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:31 am Valens (Anthology Book IV, Chapter 4):
Often, then, when the Lord of Fortune or its lord falls amiss (most probably refers to being in aversion), the Lot of Spirit divides both bodily matters and those that pertain to action. Similarly also, Fortune will divide both when the Lot of Spirit or its lord falls amiss, just as for predominations and rulerships.

One question about this translation. The version of Valens I'm using says:

https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Ve ... entire.pdf
Note that if the Lot of Fortune or its ruler are badly situated, the Lot of Daimon will distribute both
the bodily and the active qualities. Likewise Fortune will make the distribution of both qualities if the Lot
of Daimon or its ruler is unfavorably situated, and the same is true of the controls and the houserulerships.

It uses the phrase "badly situated" or "unfavorably situated" instead of amiss. I only bring that up because it could change the meaning slightly. I understood this passage as him talking about the lot or its lord being in the 6th or 12th houses, as opposed to implying aversion. Granted, you might be working with a more accurate translation than I am, but isn't the term "falling amiss" also used to refer to planets being in cadent houses too?

Serapio of Alexandria – Astrological Definitions
The Fortune of the Daemon is often produced, for whenever the Light of the Sect is in the terms of [a planet] out of sect, or not according to masculine or feminine; for example, by day the Sun in a feminine sign, or by night the Moon in a masculine sign; and whenever the Light of the Sect is not eastern in the hemisphere of the sect. But if both of the Lights [are] in the hemisphere under the earth, and the rest, not in domicile, have [a position] from the prevailing—that is [the] leading Light—to the following one, the Fortune is understood.
]ames Herschel Holden, Porphyry the philosopher, Introduction to the Tetrabiblos and Serapio of Alexandria astrological definitions, Translated from the Greek (2010).

Eduardo J. Gramaglia:
Many times Spirit (Daimon) becomes Fortune: for when the Light of the Sect is found in bounds of [a star] out of Sect; or, according to the masculine and feminine - that is, when the Sun is in a feminine sign by day, or when the Moon in a masculine sign by night; or when the Light of the Sect is not Eastern in the Hemisphere of the Sect; or when both Lights happen to be in the hemisphere under the Earth, and the other stars are found in an uncongenial condition because of the Light in overseeing position, that is, in the anteceding signs, then Fortune is taken in the direction of the following signs.
Eduardo J. Gramaglia originally posted at: www.HellenisticAstrology.com (2013)

As a random point of interest, I noticed that in the Valens example charts he uses the traditional lot of fortune calculation even for diurnal charts where the Sun is in a feminine sign, which would seem to disagree with what Serapio is saying (assuming I'm understanding him correctly). Here is one example although there are others:
viewtopic.php?p=123915#p123915