What do you think about the 9th and the 11th in terms of the following symbolism:
Ideology, activism and truth.

It seems to me that both the 9th and 11th share some of that symbolism, but that in the 9th it's more about 'living your truth' while in the 11th it's more about expressing and talking about a person's truth.
That is, that the 11th is more intellectual and social and the 9th is more physical and about embodiment.

Classically the 9th is mainly associated with higher education, travel, and belief or god. So the latter themes may fall under the umbrella of "beliefs".

What do you think?
Anything to add?
A different opinion?

makes sense to me dima!

another approach might be to emphasize planets as opposed to houses - the obvious correlation being jupiter for the 9th and saturn/uranus for the 11th. and it also brings into my mind that terrible bugaboo about the relationship of signs to houses - 9th house - sag and 11th house aquarius... oh well - i couldn't help it, lol..

James hi,
Thanks for replying

If I remember correctly, as early as W. Lilly, that co-signification thing was already present.
I mean what is known by modern astrologers as the "astrological alphabet. Say 9th=Jupiter=Sagittarius.

Just checked Deb's series about the houses, and that seems to be right:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html

I wonder if it began with Lilly, or was present event before him.

it's a very interesting question dima and perhaps deb or martin or someone else can comment on the historical perspective with regard to this.. my impression is this confusion over the 12 signs and 12 houses has a long precedence, but i do know deb says this causes much confusion too.. i read her book on the houses a number of years ago and enjoyed it.. i can't remember how she broke it down in the book, but hopefully she or someone else would like to comment on this.. cheers..

Hi James and Dima,

I wonder if it began with Lilly, or was present event before him.

It was present before Lilly (I think, but historical experts Deb? Martin? need to confirm) but not as the modern astrological alphabet.
Both traditional and modern would take the ruler of the sign the house cusp falls on as also the "accidental" house ruler. Hence, if the cusp of the seventh house falls on Sagittarius, Jupiter (ruler of Sagittarius) is also ruler of the seventh house. Traditional astrologers (don't know how far back) e.g. Lilly also assign some sort of universal house rulers regardless of the signs the houses are in. These "universal" house rulers begin with Saturn (first planet in the Chaldean order) as "universal" ruler of the first house (regardless of the sign) followed by the other planets in Chaldean order ruling the following houses. This results in Jupiter as the "universal" ruler of the ninth house.

The equation Ninth house = Ninth sign is claimed to be a modern approach while traditional astrologers only use this equation in a specific area namely melothesia. The traditional astrologers (at least the Hellenistic, would have equated Cancer to the first; following the scheme in the thema mundi.

The universal house rulers (Anthony Louis calls them con-significators) plus the planets that find Joy in the respective houses plus the domicile and exalted rulers of signs in the thema mundi enhanced the associations of those planets to the meanings of the houses.

Example: Ninth house
Ninth sign of thema mundi = Pisces, Domicile Ruler = Jupiter (still Jupiter but not Jupiter as ruler Sag!), Exalted Ruler = Venus
Planet Joy in 9th = Sun
"Universal" ruler of 9th = Jupiter
This is a house with Sun and both benefics being associated with it!

Jupiter is repeated twice! The association of the ninth house to Jupiter is remarkably fitting!
Jupiter = wisdom, journey (both physical and spiritual), pilgrimage, religion
The Sun finds Joy here, Sun = knowing, making unknown known and clear by its light, all seeing eye (vision & prophecy), association with wisdom and truth (!), sun being spark of a chart = spiritual, ...
Venus as exalted ruler: obedience (to God) and purity, beauty seen in the truth, ...

Example: Eleventh house
Eleventh sign of thema mundi = Taurus, Domicile Ruler = Venus, Exalted Ruler = Moon
Planet Joy in 11th = Jupiter
"Universal" ruler of 11th = Sun
This is a house with both luminaries and both benefics being associated with it!

Jupiter with Sun provides friendship, patronship, acquisition of wealth through connection with the rulers or aristocrats, emancipation, freedom
Venus as domicile ruler and Moon as exalted ruler: enhances the connection with others, the gathering of people, society, social clubs, charity, socialites ...

Even though 3 same planets (Sun, Jupiter, Venus) are associated with both ninth and eleventh, the meanings are differentiated by the house mode, ninth being cadent (hence, the associations with traveling, spiritual, etc.) and eleventh being succedent of the tenth (hence the associations with people, connections, acquisitions, etc. especially with Moon).

What do you think about the 9th and the 11th in terms of the following symbolism:
Ideology, activism and truth.

It seems to me that both the 9th and 11th share some of that symbolism, but that in the 9th it's more about 'living your truth' while in the 11th it's more about expressing and talking about a person's truth.

Well, both 9th and 11th share 3 same planets associated with them. 9th living the truth whereas 11th with expressing and talking and connecting - as moon is also associated with the 11th...maybe?

Cheerio!

astrojin - you never cease to amaze!! i always learn something from you when you post... however, i am only slightly further ahead... thanks for your input!

Found this in my notes:
"Apparently the association of houses with the signs began in medical astrology in the middle ages, then we see it first with Claude Dariot and Schoner and also in W. Lilly."
don't remember the source, but if it's in my notes, I suppose I scribbled it down when some modern authority mentioned it.

Astrojin:
Will try to reply to your post later

Astrojin,
Reread your reply.

Always been a bit on the fence about the thema mundi.
Does anyone knows if it only appears in Valens (I think it was Valens), or does it appear in other Hellenistic sources?

About it:
https://da28rauy2a860.cloudfront.net/we ... be4f7b.png
How can we explain such house affinities as the following ones:
4th Venus and Saturn (maybe Saturn as father in night chars, though this is prior to Medieval)
5th Mars (would it be sex?)
6th Jupiter (doesn't make much sense to me)
7th the Malefics (Maybe setting as dying, or open enemies)
12th Mercury (being removed as to distant travel or loneliness as fertile ground for thoughts? Seems weak).
Or if you could refer me to another thread or source which explain house affinity according to it...

I agree with significators for houses based on the Chaldean order and the Joys, this I do.

And thanks for your input, of course

Hello,

Always been a bit on the fence about the thema mundi.

Same here... always good to question the principles by which aphorisms are derived and outcomes are reached. Example: Both Jupiter and Venus are benefics (aphorism). So, when Jupiter as ruler of 2nd house (finance/wealth) is in trine to ascendant ruler, that means good for financial status of the native (outcome)... bla bla. But then why Jupiter and Venus are benefics (principle behind the aphorism that decides Jupiter & Venus benefics and Mars & Saturn malefics)? Well, some derive from Ptolemy while others from Babylonian astro-omen-logy (for lack of better terms)... haha. But question we must and it's ok. When it comes to thema-mundi, the associations for some are apt while others are off...

Does anyone knows if it only appears in Valens (I think it was Valens), or does it appear in other Hellenistic sources?

Vettius Valens and Firmicus Maternus.

I agree with significators for houses based on the Chaldean order and the Joys, this I do.

So am I (contrary to Schmidt who said to me that Joys plus thema mundi are more related to Hellenistic; according to him, Chaldean order & house meanings are not part of the Hellenistic...).

How can we explain such house affinities as the following ones:

This requires a little bit more time and I am traveling right now. Let me put in something that I wrote many years ago, probably 15 yrs ago! (which I have not revised...):
Legend: J = Joy, C = Chaldean Order, D = domicile ruler of the corresponding sign in the thema mundi, E = exalted ruler of the corresponding sign in the thema mundi

House: 1
Mer (J): Helm, breath, speech, thoughts
Sat (C): Binding (of the soul to the body)
Moon (D): Life, body
Jup (E): Birth, emancipation (from the limited womb to the world)

House: 2
Jup (C): Wealth, money
Sun (D): Living, livelihood, manner of living

House: 3
Moon (J): queen, religious observance, dream interpretation, wandering
Mars (C): Siblings (brothers in arms), colleagues
Mer (D, E): Travel, messengers, short trips, relatives, siblings (younger than the native), neighbors, letters, contracts, rumors

House: 4
Sun (C): Father
Ven (D): Fruits, vineyards,
Sat (E): Land, immovable properties, hidden treasures, end of things, ancient dwellings, ancient people, ancestors, secret things, the origin

House: 5
Ven (J, C): Bona fortuna (good fortune), pleasures, food and drink, gifts, emissaries, honors
Mars (D): Sexual acts

House: 6
Mars (J): Mala fortuna (bad fortune) Illness, injuries, action
Mer (C): Servants, slaves, laborers, small animals, domesticated animals
Jup (D): Emancipation from slavery

House: 7
Moon (C): Women, marriage, spouse, partners
Sat (D): Binding (marriage, business contract, etc.)
Mars (E): Controversies, open enemies, dispute, war

House: 8
Sat (C, D) Death, idle, legacies, inheritance, grief, fear, loss

House: 9
Sun (J): Emperor, king, sovereignty,
Jup (C, D): Being away from home, pilgrimage, prophecy, religion, dreams
Ven (E): Emissaries

House: 10
Mars (C, D): Praxis, profession, skills, actions
Sun (E): King, commander in chief, honor, dignity, eminence, victory

House: 11
Jup (J): Companions, patrons, trust & hope, fortune, emancipation of slaves, freedom, agathos daemon (good spirit)
Sun (C): Praise, successor to the king
Ven (D): Social functions, society, conference, elites, aristocrats
Moon (E): Public, public gathering, socialites

House: 12
Sat (J): Secret enemies, large/riding animals, wild animals, prison, self-undoing, lamentations, slander (backstabbing), cacos daemon (evil spirit)
Ven (C): Guilty pleasures
Mer (D): Servants, slaves

Some are really stretching it!!!

Hi ... I was mucking around with the Thema Mundi a little while back and wondered how it would look with the planets in the places of their Exaltation (as far as I know it's always shown with the planets in their domiciles) and I noticed something interesting; the houses that are usually considered 'bad' (12th, 6th, 2nd, and 8th) can all be seen by an Exalted Sun in the Thema Mundi and the houses that are averse to the Sun in Aries either have a nocturnal planet or are in the aspect of the nocturnals.

And if the Thema Mundi represents the 'the world theme' with the Sun elevated; what happens when it is brought down to Earth, to the Asc? And turning the chart to bring Aries to the Asc, and put the planets in their domiciles you have diurnal planets in the places that were averse to the Sun in Aries and the Sun in the 5th of childbirth. And if you look at it from the exalted Moon's perspective; the places she can't see are occupied by diurnal planets or their rays. Not sure what it all means yet but found it interesting.

Edit: Apologies, just noticed I had loaded the wrong graphic for the thema mundi from the solar perspective, replaced it.

Astrojin:
Very nice. Will go through your post one more time later and will try to put my thoughts on paper (typing).

Jane:
Nice observation.
If I remember correctly Brennan and Dykes were talking about Thema Mundi symmetry and patterns in this podcast episode:
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2020/05 ... discovery/
btw, your archive link. Are those study materials by C. C. Zain?

Dima Gur wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:39 pm
Jane:
Nice observation.
If I remember correctly Brennan and Dykes were talking about Thema Mundi symmetry and patterns in this podcast episode:
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2020/05 ... discovery/
btw, your archive link. Are those study materials by C. C. Zain?

Hi Dima,

I had the wrong graphic up for the Sun's perspective from Aries in the Thema Mundi, fixed it.
Thanks for the link, I will take a look. And yes, the Mundane notes are from Zain's 'Mundane Astrology'.