Hello all
Sorry to start a new thread as my first post but anyway (refugee from astrodienst)

This occurred to me today
Could this transit show any possibility of democracy being destroyed

Thoughts welcome
I viewed this transit as power to the people
Hopefully this is what will happen
But Pluto’s destructive and imo Aquarius is democracy
Just my simplistic two cents

Ps I also think AI is under this transit and again where’s the power going to be? Will the people be controlled by it more so than before

Hi Emma,

Democracy's been around since the 6th century BC, and this will be the 12th time that Pluto has entered Aquarius since then. From that, it seems unlikely that this transit alone would undo a system of government embedded in half the globe's countries. [1]

Whether signs rule anything is something worth considering (I'm not sure they do). Aquarius does emphasize decentralization and dogmatism. I think it's quite likely that this transit will, instead of destroying democracy, bring attention to how poorly democracy has been propped up around the world. According to the Economist Group's Intelligence Unit, [2] only 8% of the global population lives in a functioning democracy. Canada, Spain, France, Ireland, the UK, Iceland, the nordic nations, Germany, Australia, Japan, and Taiwan all scored well on measures for full democratic governance. This study contends that 37% of the global population lives in a flawed or threatened democracy: the United States, Brazil, Argentina, much of eastern Europe, South Africa, India, Indonesia, etc.

Lots to watch as this transit unfolds, certainly. I'm interested in how this comes together when Uranus enters Gemini.

Oh, and welcome to the Skyscript forum!

no need for pluto in aq to destroy democracy…. corporate plutocracy already did that.. maybe some are just waking up to it now however.. when bribery is legalized, ie lobbying, you know it is all downhill from there.. money buys power.. it has nothing to do with democracy.. and yes! welcome to skyscript!

i have often thoughtof how scorpio is the 10th house to aquarius and of how the modern rulers of these 2 signs, aq and scorp. don’t do well in hard aspect to one another.. even the conjunction is extremely turbulent.. think the 60s and the overthrowing of segregation laws in the usa.. at present the world is increasingly divided by wealth.. those who have, those who don’t, and those barely hanging on.. this, along with a lot of other troubles facing the planet, are all unsustainable.. our politicians are toobusy serving corporate interests, in spite of their high minded pretensions to the contrary…. democracy died a long time ago…a lot of folks like to settle for facades however.. keeping up appearances has always had a particular appeal to some…. pluto likes to strip away these types of facades and personally, i am all for it…

Hi Emma, interesting question, reminded me that Pluto rules criminals and I'd just been thinking of the trouble in Haiti, criminal gangs took over the government on February 29, and how to approach it using Mundane astrology. Your question prompted me to look at the Pluto ingress into Aquarius; there are 5 entries, the first was on March 23, 2023, the final entry will be on November 19, 2024. I'm just starting to seriously study Mundane so not sure how to treat the five passes but did note that on the January 20, 2024 entry (with Pluto direct), it was partile conjunct the Sun and given that the Sun is in detriment (sometimes called 'exile') it seems a fitting description for the criminal (Pluto) overthrow of leaders (Sun); the gangs essentially forced the Haitian PM into 'exile'. I wonder if there will be other overthrows between now and September 1st (when Pluto turns retro again).

Looking at the noon transits for the takeover in Haiti, the Sun was at 10 Pisces and the September 1st ingress chart will have the Sun at 10 Virgo in opposition to that transit Sun; I hope it won't take that long for Haitians to get a decent government in place.

Perhaps the ingress has more to do with the breakdown of established leadership than democracy itself? The last ingress has Pluto sextile the Sun and in opposition to the Moon (people) and Mars; which, I fear, does not look good for people in general. Hopefully Wade, James, Greg, or others with more experience in Mundane studies will add their thoughts.

hi jane,

yours is a thought provoking response which motivates me to comment.. obviously for those who know me even half well, they know i don’t need much provoking to comment!
quickly on haiti and corruption ~ anyone considering either will know this didn’t just come up with the pluto ingress into aquarius. . i recommend a quick glance at the history and abuse that haiti has suffered historically to acknowledge the criminals have been ruling the roost for much too long, and only now are some waking up to it! but that is not what i wanted to talk about!

i have been forced to reconsider the impotance of ingress charts since my involvement with the sidereal zodiac.. it has forced me to reconsider a number of astrological beliefs i have somewhat semiconsciously maintained over the many years of my interest in astrology….

it has gotten to be that i have come to believe that astrology is a type of mirror one looks into where they see much of themselves and there set of beliefs reflected in the mirror, however they get further distanced from the apparent truth they are looking for..perhaps having this realization is a type of freedom from ignorance in itself, but others might view it that i hold to less and less strict rules as guidance to what i have typically used astrology for.. well, this re minds me of one of my favourite lao tzu sayings which i have always held close to…. ‘the further you go, the less you know’.. this might seem like a bummer for a person just getting started in astrology and wanting to gain greater insights into the world and people thru the use of astrology, but i think my insight here can also facilitate greater independence of thought with regard to the technics and methods astrologers usually fall back on, when trying to understand the universe thru the lense of astrology…

my views on ingress charts has become much more relative as a consequence.. does it have merit or is pluto in sidereal capricrn still? life is so much simpler with only one zodiac, lol… you could even say it is so much simpler when you make up your mind. and decide on only one zodiac too, as opposed to entertaining the thought both have merit…. but i think my insight here wouldn’t have been possible if i had only settled on one zodiac! and i don’t wish to disparge others belief in only one zodiac either! the whole exercise is fruitful for me regardless!

the whole idea of criminality which could be broadened to the idea of good and evil, is always thought provoking to me… i have this idealistic idea that criminality or evil is like an absence of intent.. maybe there is intention in evil, but only to help reveal the importance of ethics and morality.. how much can be learned of this inately, and how much must we learn by accident, thru so called acts of criminality or evil? this makes me think of the importance of saturn as a teacher in this special regard…it almost seems like we are being led to an awakening thru the guidance of saturn, which kind of runs counter to the role of saturn as the bad guy in astrology..

if anyone is still reading me here, i’m impressed! i have been having pluto transit at my sun~moon midpoint which happens to be about 0 aquarius tropical, so maybe that explains some of this.. i am presently travelling in france and also enjoying a book by doestovsky called the idiot which is really quite good.. i decided against dragging a large ben dykes translation with me and instead opted to take the idiot and a chang tzu translation with me instead.. the french cafe has made me more verbose then usual…

james_m wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:21 am hi jane,

yours is a thought provoking response which motivates me to comment.. obviously for those who know me even half well, they know i don’t need much provoking to comment!
quickly on haiti and corruption ~ anyone considering either will know this didn’t just come up with the pluto ingress into aquarius. . i recommend a quick glance at the history and abuse that haiti has suffered historically to acknowledge the criminals have been ruling the roost for much too long, and only now are some waking up to it! but that is not what i wanted to talk about!

Hi James, I didn't mean to imply that the ingress was a cause, merely that it was descriptive of the incident.

james_m wrote: it has gotten to be that i have come to believe that astrology is a type of mirror one looks into where they see much of themselves and there set of beliefs reflected in the mirror, however they get further distanced from the apparent truth they are looking for..perhaps having this realization is a type of freedom from ignorance in itself, but others might view it that i hold to less and less strict rules as guidance to what i have typically used astrology for.. well, this re minds me of one of my favourite lao tzu sayings which i have always held close to…. ‘the further you go, the less you know’.. this might seem like a bummer for a person just getting started in astrology and wanting to gain greater insights into the world and people thru the use of astrology, but i think my insight here can also facilitate greater independence of thought with regard to the technics and methods astrologers usually fall back on, when trying to understand the universe thru the lense of astrology…

Very close to a favourite saying of my own, "The more I learn, the less I know" in the sense that if you think you "know" something you take it as a certainty; and the most important thing I have learned from my studies in a variety of areas, is just how much more there is to learn even in the narrowest of subjects and the only real certainty is that I still have a lot to learn, about everything.

my views on ingress charts has become much more relative as a consequence.. does it have merit or is pluto in sidereal capricrn still? life is so much simpler with only one zodiac, lol… you could even say it is so much simpler when you make up your mind. and decide on only one zodiac too, as opposed to entertaining the thought both have merit…. but i think my insight here wouldn’t have been possible if i had only settled on one zodiac! and i don’t wish to disparge others belief in only one zodiac either! the whole exercise is fruitful for me regardless!

Can't speak to similarities or differences between sidereal and tropical zodiacs as I have only ever used the tropical; as to using only one being simpler, there I can only say I find very little that is simple in its use, other than its calculation.

james_m wrote: the whole idea of criminality which could be broadened to the idea of good and evil, is always thought provoking to me… i have this idealistic idea that criminality or evil is like an absence of intent.. maybe there is intention in evil, but only to help reveal the importance of ethics and morality.. how much can be learned of this inately, and how much must we learn by accident, thru so called acts of criminality or evil? this makes me think of the importance of saturn as a teacher in this special regard…it almost seems like we are being led to an awakening thru the guidance of saturn, which kind of runs counter to the role of saturn as the bad guy in astrology..

I think of criminality as separate from the concepts of good and evil for the simple reason that it is determined by legislation and culture; there is much of what is done in our culture that I find criminal but the law does not and vice versa. I think there are evil and good acts but not that anything, including a planet, is intrinsically good or evil; rather more, that, like people, they can incline to one or the other depending on circumstances.

One very interesting experience I had a number of years ago was when I was learning to play Texas Hold'em. I participated in an online forum that had a number of regulars, my self included, who began to play a series of Mafia games. A few players were randomly assigned to be the 'mafia' group, the rest were innocent civilians. The mafia group had a private thread only they could participate in; the innocents could only communicate in the game thread. At the end of each game day there would be a vote by all players as to who we thought was "mafia" and the player with the highest vote was knocked out of the game. The really interesting bit was how the innocents nearly always thought the mafia was working on some grand plan to lead the voting astray; then, when the game was finished and we all had access to the mafia thread we'd discover that their play had been totally opportunistic! No planning, no mutual consent, no conspiracy; regardless of what collection of players ended up as mafia they all just kept a sharp eye for a situation they could exploit to their advantage.

And I realized that is probably how most of the world works, in political, corporate, academic, or criminal organizations; no big plans, no intelligent assessments, just an eye out for opportunities to personally profit with little or no regard for those outside their immediate purview.

if anyone is still reading me here, i’m impressed! i have been having pluto transit at my sun~moon midpoint which happens to be about 0 aquarius tropical, so maybe that explains some of this.. i am presently travelling in france and also enjoying a book by doestovsky called the idiot which is really quite good.. i decided against dragging a large ben dykes translation with me and instead opted to take the idiot and a chang tzu translation with me instead.. the french cafe has made me more verbose then usual…

Enjoy France!

hi jane,

thanks! i like your responses and enjoyed the mafia story too! this is the kind of conversation it would be easier to talk in person, then write on this ipad about! i will say this though.. when psyco and sociopaths have the quickest access to the halls of power, given that they have no morals or ethical rules to follow, it creates for a challenging world to live in! and this is especially true when it is very difficult to impossible to be able to know them apart from the others! this is probably why i place so little importance in appearances. and am always disappointed with those who do the opposite.. obviously a balance could be struck, but dang if i can do that.. i haven’t played texas holdem in many, many years!

Hello again everyone
Firstly thanks you very much for all replies

I came across this article on astrodienst and it touches on most issues people have mentioned here
It is a bit heavy (at least for me) but contains a lot of good insight

https://www.astro.com/astrology/in_plut ... mann_e.htm

November 2024 seems to be very important, when Pluto moves in for good
That made me think of changes in usa and uk politics …two election results , one for president in the usa and the other for the leader of the Conservative Party in uk

The word change popped up a lot
Maybe the uk prime minister will be pivotal as his party slogan is Change

I don’t have the astrological understanding and experience, also limited time wise,
to answer everyone but thanks again and for the welcome and I hope to chat more in the future

From the observer article today :
“A new era dawns. America’s tech bros now strut their stuff in the corridors of power”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... s-of-power

How Pluto in Aquarius is that??
,
Just parking that here for now

And this


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nformation

Benjamin Franklin, early tech bro?