james_m wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:22 pm it is interesting to me that this 'selective scrutiny' only happens when someone raises the topic of primary directions...

Speaking for myself, I took one look at the chart when it was posted and decided not to bother with such an inexact-looking birth time. Later I replied briefly to agree with Georgius that applying directions to this chart (without first rectifying it) would be a waste of time.

what does this say about the idea of resurrecting the use of primary directions, if anything??

Absolutely nothing.

what does it say of the astrological observations made prior to my post?

That they were made by other people with other ideas of what is worthwhile.

With regard to the Rodden rating system, AA simply means 'birth certificate in hand'. Whether the birth certificate is correct is an entirely different question. Statistically, we might expect 1 person in 60 to be born on the stroke of the hour, whereas in some countries, perhaps half or a quarter of the population is, if their birth certificates are to be believed. (Also, even in countries where the birth is often recorded to the minute, much depends on the circumstances: whether the birth is uncomplicated enough to permit the attending midwife to keep an eye on her watch; whether that watch is right; etc. I was present at the birth of all my three children and know that there can be a difference of a few minutes even when the recorded time looks very precise.) Personally, I wouldn't touch an Argentinian birth chart with a stated time of 21:00, except in the context of a rectification consultation.

the way i see it, PDs are going the way of the dodo bird unless more 'traditional astrologers' show the use and relevance of them..

You seem to expect those of us who use directions to be anxious for your approbation, but I fail to see why. I know, to my own satisfaction and that of my clients, that directions used in the traditional way, together with profections, revolutions, etc., work consistently and reliably in predictive work. I don't feel a need to prove anything to anyone else, nor to provide examples to satisfy anyone's idle curiosity. To illustrate and educate, yes; but those who are not satisfied with the examples in my books are unlikely to be so with further examples: they will just be more of the same.

it is interesting to me that this 'selective scrutiny' only happens when someone raises the topic of primary directions... what does this say about the idea of resurrecting the use of primary directions, if anything?? what does it say of the astrological observations made prior to my post?

You don't seem genuinely interested in exploring the technique; you seem more intent upon rubbishing it for some reason. If you were genuinely interested, you wouldn't have passed over the post that Ouranus made without comment, nor be so insistent that the technique must produce results for an on-the-hour birth time, obviously. Anyone who has glanced at the Gauquelin data (supposedly reliably recorded birth times) knows that most birth times are rounded up to the nearest quarter of an hour in official records. For many astro-techniques precision is not essential, but traditional authors stress repeatedly that the use of PDs demands careful rectification of the nativity before engagement, most especially for something like length of life, which pulls in the use of the hyleg (of the 5 main candidates for that, three of them -asc, MC and Fortuna- are extremely time-sensitive).

Morin, for example, talks about how a series of primary directions to his birth chart coincided with dramatic events, having told us that his chart was carefully checked and rectified against many events. That sort of research is not something you would demand of forum members in relation to the recent death of a noteworthy person.

Additionally, you seem to be treating it as something that must demonstrate obvious evidence for all charts, but no symbolic technique is intended to be used in isolation; they work in synch with other methods, as part of a package. If you don't rate this particular technique, why don't you just leave it alone as one that doesn't impress you?

For the record, I used the 9pm chart posted by Deb. And looked at the directed planets within a 1 degree orb. Had I not found any significant aspects, I would have concluded that the birthtime needed a rectification. But it still needs and you can tweak it with the transits, chronocators, rulerships, bounds, anareta places and exactness of the aspect but we can safely say that his chart is around 9pm.
We are not dealing with a test on rectification here.
And we have not uncovered all the subtleties of the chart you can find with PDs.

Ouranos

I just had a quick look at the unrectified chart, confining myself to the somewhat less time-sensitive directions of the luminaries, and I think the Sun to the opposition of Saturn converso motu (with Saturn returning to the same place in the revolution), directly followed by the Sun to the square of Mercury, are highly relevant. These would not be enough to predict death (and if the Sun is in the 6th, it would hardly be the hyleg), but they are certainly enough to predict a serious illness.

I concur with you Martin.
According to the calculation of Ptolemy, the Hyleg would be the ASC ruled by the Moon.
The Moon in the 7th House, which is a Hyleg House
The Alcochoden would be the Hyleg's almuten. The Moon in the domicile of Saturn, therefore the Almuten is Saturn. But it is a speculation at this point.
And not to disregard the long standing retrogration of Mars in Cancer in his first house, hit by the Solar Eclipse in a Profected year in Scorpio (Mars ruled). Not to mention his old age, more fragile.
A very difficult period.

We can never predict death with certainty, nor its strong likelihood by one technique alone, but traditional authors would 'drill down' through solar and lunar returns too, as well as transits - these charts pretty much speak for themselves (for the lunar return, it seemed that the return that occurred on the day of his death took priority)

Took a look using the OA directions I've been using; found the following:
Distributors
2020-03-24 Jupiter sharing by semi-sextile (mitigated conjunction) with Mars
2022-07-30 enters bound of Mars, who will be sharing with himself by mitigated conjunction
2023-10-01 picks up Lot of the Critical Year
2026-02-02 squares the Nodal axis

Profection He died April 25, 2025, the profection is in the 5th house.
Lord of the Year (LoY) is Mars who is also the distributor sharing with himself.
Mars is in the 12th of hospitals. In the radix, he is in the 3rd which is 12th from his Scorpio domicile on the radix 4th (here on the 1st) emphasizing the possibility of 1st, 12th, and 4th house events during the year.

Directions

(see corrected list below}

Primary Directions April 17-May 17
The directed Asc is critical at 29 Aries while trine directed Saturn, also critical, (in, and ruler of, the radix 8th). Directed Uranus is conjunct directed Neptune at 21 Sagittarius (radix Neptune sits on radix Saturn's 12th part) and the directed MC is at 18 CP trine radix Neptune.

The directed Moon is at 10 Capricorn, sitting on the radix 7th, square the directed nodal axis at 10 LI/AR, which falls across the profected 12th/6th.

Directed Mercury, Venus, and Mars are all conjunct at 4 Capricorn which is on the radix Sun's antiscion while the directed Sun at 5 Capricorn is trine radix Uranus at 5 Taurus who co-rules the radix 8th while directed Uranus and Neptune are conjunct each other 21 Sagittarius and sitting on the radix SAN.

The directed 5th (profected 1st) is at 13 Leo conjunction the radix Lot of Death (per Olymiodorous).

Maiora/Minora Esse
In the maiora esse, Mars (distributor and LoY) and Neptune are both critical.
In the minora esse, the SAN is critical.
Solar Return
Mars, the distributor and Lord of the Year, is in the 8th partile square radix Uranus (co-ruler of the radix 8th) while Saturn, ruler of the radix 8th, is in the SR 4th (end of life) while SR Neptune is conjunct maiora Saturn and SR Mars is in the radix 1st.

Jupiter, ruler of the SR Asc is in the 6th of illness square Saturn and falls in the profected 8th.

The Moon, ruler of the SR 8th, is in the 8th.

Edit:
Just reviewing Gadbury's aphorisms in his Collection of Nativities and came across one (#61) that applies here:

"The Lord of the Ascendant of the radix, conjunct with the Lord of the 8th of the revolution, in the 8th, is very dangerous to the life of the native."

The Moon rules the radix Asc and the SR 8th and it is in the SR 8th.

So there is a repeated emphasis on the 1st (life) 12th (hospitals) 6th (illness) and 8th (death).

EDIT: April 30
Embarrassed to say I completely messed up my Primary Directions on this when copying the RA/Decl information into my spreadsheet template. These are the corrected positions: The 12th/6th axis (hospitals, illness) is critical.

The 2nd/8th axis is changing degree, indicating the area of life most apt to produce an event.

The relevant directions, given the event, are:
Dir. Sun 12 LI is sextile the directed 8th at 12 SA and trine the radix Moon at 12 AQ as the directed 8th sextiles the radix Moon at the same time the directed Moon at 18 SC is square the radix 8th 18 AQ and sextile radix Neptune 18 VI while directed Neptune opposes the radix Sun. The Moon is lord of the radix Asc, radix Neptune opposes the radix 8th and Saturn (ruler of the radix 8th in the radix 8th).

Dir. Asc 13 TA square radix Lot of Death (OL) 13 LE

Dir. Jupiter (SR Asc ruler) sextile directed Saturn (ruler of radix 8th)

Dir. Mercury 28 LI (ruler of the profected 8th) is square radix Pluto while directed Pluto 22 AR is in a mitigated conjunction with the radix lot of Death (DO). Pluto co-rules the profected Asc.

Taking another look at everything:
- Mars, the distributor and ruler of the Profected 1st, is in the Profected 12th, and in the SR 8th; he is not active by direction but is critical in the maiora esse

- Moon, ruler of the radix Asc, is in the Profected 4th and the SR 8th (which she rules); she is active by direction

- The Sun and Jupiter are in the radix 6th and are both active by direction

- Both Lot's of Death are active by direction

The best prediction of the death of Pope Francis was made by an old episode of The Simpsons, showing his gravestone & his death year of 2025

Thanks, Jane. So many techniques we use as astrologers! I’ll add one more:

I continue to test the 40 day ennead (pronounced any-add) chart as it is a newly discovered technique that can give dramatic results for events. This chart may be seen as a 40 day division of the solar return, though it can be cast for any date in the life without considering the annual chart as it is a stand alone chart. Both the solar return and ennead are basically simple transit charts cast for precise moments in time.

The (sidereal) ennead cast for the death of Pope Francis makes a strong statement for the validity of this 40 day chart. The date of the chart is 16 April, 6:35:33 PM, birth place location. This chart also suggests that the 9:00 PM time of birth is accurate or very nearly so due to the precise orbs of transiting Mars to natal Pluto and natal M.C. to ennead cusp 7..



The natal MC falls on the ennead 7th cusp (place of death) with only a 5 minute orb. Ennead Sun is a few degrees away just under cusp 7 and square Mars at the zenith.

Ennead Mars at the zenith conjoins natal Pluto with only a two minute orb. Mars is lord of the natal 6th house of illness (Scorpio) which clearly shows the cause of death. (For those familiar with India’s astrology, Pluto lies in Saturn’s mansion, natal 8th house lord--Capricorn).

Transiting Pluto is at the nadir (end of life in some systems). So we have two angular Plutos, Pluto as lord of the Greek/Roman underworld.

The sidereal Pisces stellium (Nep-Mer-Sat-Rahu-Venus) falls in the ennead 6th house of illness and trines ennead Mars at the zenith. (Cusp lines in the chart are the centers of houses.)

The natal planetary triad of planets in Sagittarius (Rahu-Sun-Jupiter) trines the ennead Sun and ennead cusp 7 where of course the natal MC and Uranus fall.

Though the trine aspect is downplayed in some western systems, it’s considered to be of major importance in India’s astrology, and as Deb has pointed out elsewhere, the trine is given importance by Morin in his The Cabal of the Twelve Houses Astrological.

Hi Therese,

Thanks for the post, the Pluto contact is interesting given that it co-rules his radix 4th (end of life), profected 1st and SR 12th.

Jane wrote:

Thanks for the post, the Pluto contact is interesting given that it co-rules his radix 4th (end of life), profected 1st and SR 12th.

Jane, so tropical radix chart with Cancer rising and Scorpio on the IC, 4th cusp, profected 1st and SR 12th--tropical. With the 4th/10th houses ruled by planets at the zenith/nadir or MC/IC (depending on astrological preference) and two zodiacs we can have multiple signs associated with each house cusp! It can be confusing, but I thank Deb for now allowing discussion using both zodiacs. We're doing it in peace and without warfare!

I don't currently use Pluto as ruler of a house cusp, but in the sidereal radix chart (equal house lines as centers of houses) Pluto is in the 2nd house, one of two houses in Indian astrology associated with a person's death (2nd and 7th). Also Indian, Pluto is in a mansion of Saturn, 8th house lord (Capricorn), so Pluto relates to the 8th (longevity and its termination). Well, whatever, Pluto in the sidereal chart isn't a planet to bring happy results!

Hi Therese,

lol...I look at the different zodiac, house division systems as different perspectives of the same scene and, as is true of differing perspectives, there is often common ground. Here, Pluto looks to own that ground.

For myself, I use the outer planets as co-rulers rather than 'sole' rulers; I don't abandon the original rulers or give the outers precedence over the sign.