Does it really matter what Musk’s birth time is?

All he does is repeat his game plan. He has learnt that it always works out in his favour. So he hits the repeat button. Doesnt matter what. Its the same game plan on repeat.

He typically choses something and takes a wild card, rebel ‘because-I-can’ stance and pushes against x…family, society, community…whatever and whoever. He goes in full force and stamps all over the object to cause major catastrophe or disruption.

Then he wraps it up in his favour, letting his grand trine mars venus work the mess all out favourably.

Makes me think he is developmentally challenged and frozen at some teenage year number now repeating the rebel year book recipe with exactly the same ‘ I know best’ of your typical teenager.

His almost disconnected sun is only attached to mercury both sq uranus. but also…pluto sq sun. and his tsquare with mars to neptune and saturn makes whatever plan he executes to be always unprepared, scared-rabbit-running-for-its-life-out-the-hatch style.

I say this much for him, he gets 100% cheers for overcoming the fear and inertia of the Saturn mars square!

The reason his disconnected sun works is that being cancer he memorises exactly how the connector works ….when it did way back some time in his life…which is why probably its frozen then. probably a pluto trine sun period. It would need to be a pluto because he gets the same amorphous community band of people about him all the time moving like a swarm. The community supports him, he feels and and gets major ego satisfaction off this. For him its a historic replay ….but it works!

feeds off that on repeat.

repeats all that on repeat.

And I dont think he is autistic. He just has an almost disconnected sun. Amazing what he did with just mercury sq uranus and mercury sq pluto! He def. deserves cheers for this! mercury is his link to exterior. he does everything with force and disruption.

personally i would say its the mark of a highly evolved soul. he came to do something and he came with abilities cloaked…hands tied behind back and blindfolded. detached. He has all that combined mountain of mass of material matter he stands above, untouched by it all…doing good for people in weird assed ways. Go boy! ahellava original life!

I went off and checked either or both when pluto actually sq his sun in his developmental years (74) and/or when pluto scorp trined his sun…. 1985-6/7…highschool years. you would need to find the seed that was sown here. it might only have been 2-3 friends or and maybe a + adult…. because he always has support from authority…but the seed of his success ….if it is success….that he repeats was in this period. i question success. can a person succeed by accumulation of riches? or is it success when finally his material holdings gives him reach to help the alienated, downtrodden, disaffected people worldwide? He is doing this, so for me thats his successs.

interesting post!

what do you mean by ''disconnected sun''?

as for the importance of the birth time - i think it matters as it give more detail and clarity on the unique character of the chart.. maybe you want to stretch it out and say it doesn't matter what day he is born on either, lol.... and in regards to think a number of interesting and controversial individuals have been born in a window of time that i have come to associate with the mars-north node conjunction - 3 come to mind at the moment - julian assange, mario rubio and elon musk... there are a few others in this same window of time, but i am not remembering them at the moment... all have the mars-north node... also this mars-north node operates as a handle to a bucket chart in all of these 3 charts...

so, is the birth time important? yes..

as for musk being an ''evolved soul'' - i don't think that idea can be proven one way or the other and just clouds the conversation with irrelevant info.. some people like what musk is doing and some don't.. that much we can say..

i thought kenneth bowswer made an interesting study of his chart in sidereal.... i appreciate your input calli - thanks!

Hi all -
Here is the link to the video of the Kara Swisher / Ezra Klein discussion, "Kara Swisher on the Radicalization of Elon Musk" from the New York Times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xXLycFv5Gc&t=142s
I haven't been paying enough attention to Musk and listened to this Ezra Klein interview to catch up a bit (motivated by this forum thread, actually). I trusted their discussion would be ethical, perceptive, and based on facts and experience.
FWIW, I used to work in technology, not at a very high level, but did tech support and some writing, for four years, in the latter part of the 1990s This was after years of struggling to learn computing work in the 1980s (learning disabilities). I didn't want to even attempt learning QA through the company that I worked for, because I've never been organized enough and had a lot of issues with my work. The industry changed in the late 1990s and I was let go with many others through a major reduction in force. I worked at an autism LLC for awhile, too, a very interesting experience. My last job was at a software startup in 2009, but I only did some temp work there and it was purely by chance that I even got hired. I do have some sense of the spectrum of personalities involved in technology work (although I sense everything has intensified as tech people have grown wealthier and more influential, and tech more pervasive). Kara Swisher knows those people and their psychology really well, although like anyone I imagine she has her own personal skew.
Evidently Musk announced on Saturday Night Live that he has Asperger's. I didn't know this until I looked into it this morning. The diagnosistic label of Asperger's has been superseded, but I am guessing he would still qualify for some kind of autism diagnosis, even if he doesn't pursue getting diagnosed or doesn't want to identify with (or make public) the evaluation. My dad, my sister, my brother and I all have autistic tendencies, and large heads. The autism place I worked at (as an admin) felt I would qualify for an Asperger's diagnosis, but I didn't have medical insurance and haven't wanted to pursue a diagnosis with the medical establishment. It wouldn't change anything.
As for birth times, there are definitely things you can and definitely can't understand about someone's nativity without one, but having an accurate ascendant or lagna makes a profound difference. You have the houses, the bhavas. So having an accurate birth time, then, does matter, as does not assuming that birth times are necessarily accurate if they're on a birth certificate. It doesn't preclude being able to determine things about the nativity or horoscope, though. But Jyotish has a system of functional malefics and benefics that is very meaningful, and every time I look at a noon chart I know there is a loss of a major dimension of astrological knowledge with no way to fix the ascendant and determine the houses and the midheaven.
Mainly, the whole discussion made me uncomfortably aware that competence with reading nativities ( and the horoscopes of nations) requires some kind of reliable method for rectification, if only to confirm the time on the certificate. It's not an option, it's a necessity.
James, I wonder if perhaps Paul Manley would share how often he rectifies a chart and finds that the birth time is significantly off. I haven't looked for any other interviews. But he is a long-term professional Jyotishi, one who has studied with some major teachers, so he has years of experience. I used to enjoy reading the forum on his website (Light on Vedic Astrology) often.
I have a personal anecdote about birth certificates. My sister, who is only about a year younger than I am, was born on election night, 1964. My parents always celebrated her birthday on November 2nd. She was a gifted young woman and got into a very good college on the basis of her high school achievements, and my parents decided to give her a trip to Europe before she matriculated. She had to get a passport, which required that she get a copy of her birth certificate. She was shocked, and not very happy, to find out that her official recorded date of birth was November 3rd, 1964! I haven't ever seen her official birth time on her certificate, but I imagine she might have been born right after midnight, and that my parents didn't realize the clock has ticked past midnight. Or, she was actually born before midnight, and the hospital made the error when recording the time.
Myself, from learning the basics of Jyotish since 2018 (very slowly, and only the rudiments) am becoming fairly sure that the birth time on my certificate is off, enough to change my lagna/ascendant ahead one entire rashi (sign). I haven't pinned it down to a nakshatra or pada. I really never questioned the accuracy (it "looked" accurate) but certain things kept bothering me, and there was a signficant error with the recorded birth weight. But following transits and looking at the meaning of the mahadashas that I've lived through, as well as gaining some ability to read mundane commentary from professional astrologers who blog, has made me really question whether my birth time is wrong. (Both lagnas would be Saturn-ruled, however.)
I had my chart read by a very nice sadhak kind of young man who was studying with Dr Svoboda, years ago, and I ran some of my points by him recently when I began to question things. He seemed to think that some of the points I was making were credible. I probably will never know, but it is kind of an interesting puzzle, and it's all thoroughly undermined my false sense of certainty that birth certificate times are consistently reliable and trustworthy. So, a good thing!
Cheers!
Omphalos

p.s. Thanks, James, for the Kenneth Bowser article - I had actually read that before I started looking for more background on Musk.
I have read the article once, and am going to re-read it.
I don't have a background in fixed stars and primary directions.
Cheers,
Omphalos

thanks Omphalos!

in the community i live in we use the term 'on the spectrum' to refer to anyone who might exhibit autistic, asberger, or bipolar type characteristics... my wife thinks i am on the spectrum too, lol - and i have a big head - hopefully only literally!! a number of musicians i work with fall into these categories..

i might check out the interview, but not sure i need to.. i am not that interested in musk, and yes the 730am time for him does sound rounded off.. does it matter? yes and no.. but it raises the issue as you and calli have pointed out about the importance or not of birth times.. i too think they are important, but i have come to appreciate the relativity of knowing much about anything.. it is all relative!! a lot of ideas in astrology are relative.. the rich symbolism associated with astrology can be applied countless different ways as i see it, although a rabid astro fundamentalist might not like to hear me say this! in my world things are not cut and dry, or always simple to understand... it would be nice if they were! i can see the attraction to systems and ways of thinking that get and give results..

i am oriented towards getting greater understanding thru the use of astrology ( mostly self understanding) and in this regard i think an accurate birth time is extremely valuable... my approach is to remain skeptical about most things, including birth times, but to work with them anyway in the hopes of gaining greater understanding, even if the time is off, a little or a lot... thus i work with noon time charts in the absence of a specific birth time.. i work with various charts in mundane astrology for a country, as opposed to only one, as i can see how the birth of a nation is not always easy to define.. sometimes it is and other times it is not..

we are getting away from talking about elon and i apologize for that... i am not really into fixed stars either, but bowser obviously is... i have tried primary directions, but can't recall kenneith bowser using them in the article, or in general.. i don't.. what time i have spent with primary directions was mostly fruitless.. and i don't see anyone sharing their insights on them in any predictive manner more generally - in fact, just the opposite.. lots of lip service, but nothing concrete... cheers james

Thanks, for your reply - I admit I get very mental OCD-obsessive, and then lose sight of the whole, overfocusing on things (like the interview, there are plenty of good sources of info about Musk). Your gentle and relaxed tone is quite helpful and appreciated!
I meant "in mundo aspects" when I typed "primary directions".
I wish I could keep up with the rapid-fire analyses that get posted here and other places. But I can't, and I guess I should be glad that I can even do what I can. In any case, I keep reading the posts, and appreciate that there is a forum like this one. Glad for the distraction, and the stimulation.
Cheers,
Omphalos-on-the-Spectrum

thanks Omphalos

i think you're doing just fine... hopefully you continue to post and ask questions and offer your insights..

in mundo aspects - yes, i have been looking at these more the past few years, largely due ken boswers use of them... i am undecided on their relevance, but he seems to swear by them... i am still unsure of just how much, if any weight to give them..

Thanks for the link to Bowser's article. I thought I would look at the impact of using the Fagan/Bradley ayanamsa (favoured by Bowser) has on Musk's temperament analysis. This is Musk's tropical temperament analysis:


Using the sidereal zodiac favoured by Bowser we end up with this, virtually the complete opposite end of the temperament spectrum.


What to make of it? To accept the sidereal version you would have to think that Musk has an overwhelming sanguine makeup. In Greenbaum's book on Temperament, she gives the following keywords for the sanguine type:

Friendly, social, shallow, unfocussed, cheerful, dilettante, lucky (think Boris Johnson, erstwhile British PM).

Musk doesn't strike me as very sanguine at all - most analyses of his entrepreneurial skills describe a workaholic, given to living in a very high pressure world. Sanguine individuals are all 'easy come easy go', dealing with things with a shrug of the shoulders and moving on. Using the sidereal zodiac he does have a modest side order of choleric which would give him some drive and a tendency to be tendentious and disagreeable. However the much higher proportion of sanguine would significantly 'temper' this quality.

This short article gives some insight into Musk's challenging upbringing and the potential trauma that he had to deal with.

https://www.shortform.com/blog/elon-musk-psychology/

This gives a sense of Musk being an analytical and questioning individual (melancholy) with an extremely vulnerable emotional side (phlegmatic). Understandably Musk seems to have been a quite introverted child, a quality that would never grace the warm, wet, sanguine's 'hail fellow well met' positivity. Introversion is a cold, withdrawing quality (in the temperament sense), and both melancholy and phlegmatic individvuals are definitely at this end of the temperament scale..

hi ed

first off - thank you for doing this and also for doing the temperament analysis on trump, vance and thiel on the other thread as well.. it's interesting.. i have read greenbaums book and have a copy of it that i haven't looked at in some time.. keep in mind we don't know the ascendant in thiel or musks birth, given a tentative birth time.. that might seem trivial, but i think it isn't.. secondly, how someone appears via the media to the public, and how they appear to a person who knows them well and in person are again two different matters.. putting all this together can lead to misleading conclusions...

interestingly i am much more phlegmatic in sidereal and choleric in tropical, lol.... i have never tried to use temperament analysis off a computer program to define or describe myself!! i like the simple idea of the elements having bearing on temperament and i know how going from one to the other zodiac does change this often times... thanks for sharing your work ed! james

Thanks James - it's always helpful to have your perspective. I think what appeals to me about temperament analysis is that it has a long history within astrology, medicine and culture generally. The words have entered the lexicon (at least in English), which gives a sense that the ideas resonate deeply at a cultural level, at least within the Western context.

Temperament analysis also focuses on the classic triad of Sun, Moon and Ascendant and attendant rulerships etc. Lilly and others add fixed stars in, or planets in the first house, but I've never found this particularly convincing. There's a whole scheme of interpretation that comes out of the tradition built around the Sun, Moon and Ascendant - temperament, lots of Fortune and Spirit, sect, Victor (or Almuten) of the Chart. There's actually a comprehensive interpretative framework built into the roots of the tradition that we seem to have lost contact with (perhaps less so in recent years when the recovery of traditional methods has gathered pace.)

One of the interesting things about temperament is that if it is 'innate', 'inherent' or fundamental to a person it's potentially less difficult to mask or cultivate. This is the point that Greenbaum makes in her book on temperament about the difference between temperament and personality.

From Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key, pg. 1:

"What is Temperament?

It might be easier to define temperament by what it is not. In the first place, it is not the same as personality, although personality can incorporate parts of someone's temperament in its expression. Personality is shaped by both internal and external factors, where as temperament is entirely innate."

She then distinguishes between temperament and character, pointing out that the meaning of the word 'character', coming through the Greek, is 'stamp', "...as in something used to make an impression in wax or metal. So character is an impression on the person which, in that connotation, implies something from without (parental or societal) rather than within."

My understanding of this is that temperament is not something that can be switched 'on and off', unlike personality which can be adapted to particular circumstances - work, social, family contexts. We will be temperamentally similar in all of these environments, even if we adopt different personas (masks) in each one to display ourselves to the world.

I take the point about Musk's chart. I've just gone with what we know, but your reminder about the accuracy of birth times is relevant here.

Thanks again.

Aries eclipse sq his cancer sun is at apex starting 10 June and we already are heading to popcorn time with Musk.

He is deep in personal crisis and loss. And it stings.

next three weeks will be very bad for him personally.

i hope he just goes to ground somewhere …..

Hi Calli -

we already are heading to popcorn time with Musk

Yes - the reports today are explosive.

And I think it's beginning to be popcorn time with Trump too.

Can Trump survive without Musk, probably. Can Musk survive without Trump, maybe. But he hitched his Tesla fair and square to Trump and the damage might be done.

Ed