kali wrote:Here is the chart where I asked "Will a Republican be President in 2008".

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Hi Kali:

The way I think I'd approach your chart would be to analyze the 10th house which would represent the party presently in power and then look for challenges to the 10th.

I haven't analyzed it yet but just looking at it quickly, I notice Saturn is Retro (returning to power) and accidentally dignified in the fourth. Its in detriment yes, but that perfectly describes the challenges they (Republicans) are now facing: being in disfavor due to Bush's legacy. Being accidentally dignified is a stronger consideration.

Jupiter is strong in Sag and trining Saturn.

I'll try to look further later.

RC

Thank you for your reply RC.

kali wrote:
Here is the chart where I asked "Will a Republican be President in 2008".

...



Hi Kali:

The way I think I'd approach your chart would be to analyze the 10th house which would represent the party presently in power and then look for challenges to the 10th.

If I had asked "what party would win in 2008" I can understand using the 10th as you suggest. But, I posed the question to imply a contest between two parties. As time has shown, the rulers of this chart describe our candidates so I feel it can be read as 1st/7th rulers and their aspects. How you word a question takes sincere thought and gives direction to reading the chart. Trying to change that makes it confusing, no?

RC
(Saturn) Being accidentally dignified is a stronger consideration.

Saturn is in Barack's 10th house and one of the points I used to consider his winning.

RC
Jupiter is strong in Sag and trining Saturn.

They are actually separting from a trine. Jupiter comes into play by being the ruler of the Sun in Neptune and Leo is in Barack's 10th.

I'm unsure how to read the story the Moon tells here. It just separted from a sextile with Mercury. My program doesn't call it a void moon but it's not moving into an aspect with another planet. Do you see a void moon? Moon is perigrine and might signify how both parties (co-ruler of Reps and ruler of Dems 10th) seem to be grasping at straws.

RC
To see the trine of Jupiter to Saturn I count down the degrees on paper til they met. Thanks!

I had a couple of new ideas (to me) to support my prediction of a Democrat win. 1) Mars, Democrat ruler is in an angular house, a stronger position than Republican's Venus ruler in 12th. 2) Venus is in Aries a sign ruled by Mars. Lilly saw this as an indication Venus sig would surrender to Mars sig. 3) Saturn is Rep's. 10th house ruler and in it's fall. 4) Saturn is Mar's ruler and in trip.

Am I making a sound judgement of this chart?
By debmccarter at 2008-09-12 Previous reading of this chart:

Hour is Jupiter, Asc Venus in Aries both Fire signs and I felt qualifies the chart good to read.

Rep. in 1st house Taurus ruler Venus in Aries in 12th house. Venus is in detriment in Aries and weak in 12th. Ruler Mars is in Aquarius in 10th house of Reps. 10th House sign Capricorn ruler Saturn in very bad shape and has Mars coming into opposition. Capricorn is in late degree showing changing parties and moving into Aquarius, the sign where Dems Mars is sitting.

Dems in 7th house, Scorpio ruler Mars in Aquarius in their 4th house also opposing Saturn which is in their 10th house. Their 10th house sign is Cancer, ruler Moon in Sag. in 8th house. Cancer will move into Leo shortly ruled by the Sun that sits in 11th house in Pieces ruled by Jupiter in 8th in Sagittarius. Sun is in very good shape.

My judgment of this chart is that the Democrats will win the Presidency. Venus does not make aspects to Saturn or it's own ruler. Mars makes a bad aspect to Saturn but there is activity. The Mars/Saturn opposition showing separation effects both parties and either party might regret having the job.

Moon is an issue here that I'm unsure of. It is Rep's. co-ruler and ruler of Dem's 10th. It is in Sagittarius in the 8th house in late degree conj. Pluto. Venus, Moon and Saturn all share fire trip.
Ideas?

Hi All,
I don't want to insult all the people who worked so hard on their horaries regarding the possible election of Barack Obama as president of the USA, but I must at least disappoint them though.

I think all people forget that their questions are simply not valid. These questions have been asked too many times to have validity anomore. In fact for a horary question to be valid, it must be asked for the first time and this is not the case here.

The same applies to questions like "is MadeleineMcCann dead or alive? If alive, where is she?.."

These questions have been asked many 10.000 times or more.

All those horaries CAN'T be valid and true. If you would analyse all the 10.000 horaries you would end up with half of them in favour of Obama and the other half in favor of McCain.

The only valid possibility would be if Obama came to a horary astrologer and asked this question personally, or maybe his wife could ask that question. Then it would yield a 100% correct outcome.

The same applies to the parents of Madelaine McCann.

So I am sorry for everyone here (and in the rest of the world). Despite the fact that horary is a very, very valuable tool, it will not work this way.

In this case it would be handier to use their birth horoscopes, rectify them for events and make the progressions.

Hi

I know .. every question on Madeline was a NO.. she is not alive. I had not seen 1 chart with a YES. there were hopeful horarists who thought she was alive. They bended the charts with whichever way they wanted but reality is she is not alive. Who did it? I dont know.

there was 1 group somewhere on yahoo that was claiming that a couple of significators were showing that she is in the ocean on the boat... Another said that she was kept alive in the neighborhood house. It is all wishy washy stuff.

As far as horary on presidents, it is the same thing.. remember last elections? horarists closed their eyes on objectivity it became political bent of the charts. They all showed the same answer. in Horary astrology made simple by Anthony Louis there is an example will this person be elected to the office or something. I am sure there were people who thought of that question "will he be elected" There is no direct relation to this person but the answer came out to be correct one.

my 2 cents on the issue
CD

ligteneigen wrote:Hi All,
I don't want to insult all the people who worked so hard on their horaries regarding the possible election of Barack Obama as president of the USA, but I must at least disappoint them though.

I think all people forget that their questions are simply not valid. These questions have been asked too many times to have validity anomore. In fact for a horary question to be valid, it must be asked for the first time and this is not the case here.

The same applies to questions like "is MadeleineMcCann dead or alive? If alive, where is she?.."

These questions have been asked many 10.000 times or more.

All those horaries CAN'T be valid and true. If you would analyse all the 10.000 horaries you would end up with half of them in favour of Obama and the other half in favor of McCain.

The only valid possibility would be if Obama came to a horary astrologer and asked this question personally, or maybe his wife could ask that question. Then it would yield a 100% correct outcome.

The same applies to the parents of Madelaine McCann.

So I am sorry for everyone here (and in the rest of the world). Despite the fact that horary is a very, very valuable tool, it will not work this way.

In this case it would be handier to use their birth horoscopes, rectify them for events and make the progressions.

ligteneigen:
On the issue that a question can only be asked once is a reminder to those who would ask questions a second time to get the answer they want.

Also, the magic of horary astrology is that 'if the question is a valid one then the chart reflects the validity of the question.

RC, it's a real shame you are neither against Obama nor a firm supporter, because then we could have judged the chart in the first place and used the simple "us vs them" method used for football games

I suppose it's too late now for anyone to cast their own question, given we've all been reading this thread and getting ideas one way or the other.

At least we've learned that in asking a question, any question!!, it pays to be *really sure* of what you are asking

I agree with MarkC, in asking a question of this nature I would be pretty sure who I supported at the time of asking (and that would be why I would ask - I would want my favoured candidate to win). It is possibly a mistake to ask such a question when one is indifferent to the outcome - in that case, why bother asking? If you don't really have an interest either way, then the universe won't bother giving you a radical chart, I shouldn't think...

I do remember, in the misty dawn of my astrological career, judging "Will my favourite band get to no 1 this week?" when they released a single, which they do very rarely. I judged from Lord 1 (the band) and Lord 10 (getting no 1), and I got the correct answer (it was a no, they're not mega stars and I think it got to no 10). Although you could argue that I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right anyhow!

Of course, that's not of such great import as an election - but still, it was a correct judgement for a national event of which many thousands of people were aware. Which makes me think that it would be possible to judge such matters from horary - but only when we are *really clear* when we ask the question!

If only I actually liked any of Britain's politicians, I would surely cast a chart...



Keren

RC, using the 7th as the other whom you know the name of is not the correct house. It is the 11th that represents Obama, as he is a state Senator. Just as if one was a citizen of France and asked about the Govenor of New York, the 10th would be the house describing the Govvenor:regardless of the Frenchman not being a a citizen of the Big Apple! Since it is Obama's election win you are interested in we look at the 5th of the 11th(Senator), which is Cancer. The Moon sextiles Mars which is generally a yes.

ALSO, please don't turn the chart, it can confuse astrologers; and please put forth the data for calculation.

As Obama's ruler is debilitated because the Sun combusts Saturn(Obama's ruler) as it is further hindered because it is in Accidental Fall being in the 5th.

It would appear that the Moon sextile Mars will give the win to Obama. But unless we consult the terms, faces, and espeacially the Contrascions and Antiscions I doubt we have the full picture of this election.

Clinton Soule[/u]

I'd be very interested in someone explaining how one can post horoscopes as on this horary question to help the discussions and membership for faster analysis! 8)

kerenhappuch wrote:RC, it's a real shame you are neither against Obama nor a firm supporter, because then we could have judged the chart in the first place and used the simple "us vs them" method used for football games

Keren

Well, I DO have a preference. However because this race has such passionate supporters on each side, I feel it best to keep my political preferences to myself. In fact, further up there in this same thread, I think it was Kali and Tara that got into it a bit quite quickly into this discussion.

I just would prefer not to be judged by anyone, based on my political preferences.

Having said that, I feel comfortable that the 7th house is the proper house here. As for the last poster, I did in fact consider the 11th. But both sides are senators. True, I was asking if OBAMA would win, but I really didn't have it in mind "Will SENATOR Obama win?" Given my state of mind at the time, the 7th should be proper.

Also, if you look at my turned chart, it perfectly described McCain and his unannounced running mate to be, Sarah Palin. They had not yet made it public. The two of them are there together, coming onto the stage. He's about to change signs. Notice too, that he is a Virgo (w/Libra rising) and his ruler in that chart was in Virgo.

I am speaking from memory of the chart. I may go back and reassess. But I believe I had said that he had been in disfavor, a fall from grace with the public due to the public associating him with Bush, but that things were about to change for him as he was on verge of changing signs and entering his dignity (Libra - also where is ASC is.) And a few days later he did with the announcement of Palin. His poll numbers climbed up dramatically and the race is now in a tie!

I think anyone wanting to read the chart in their own way, should go ahead and accept that Obama was ruled by the 7th (putting him with Scorpio rising) and then proceed from there.

Clinton Soule wrote: ALSO, please don't turn the chart, it can confuse astrologers; and please put forth the data for calculation.

Clinton: If you'll look back at page 1 (& maybe 2), you'll see I posted both the turned and unturned chart but for ease of reference I will re-post here:(with the time/date)
RC

RC, the principle of horary that you are missing is in Traditional Horary certain houses become the house representing the matter as well as how we find the derivative house, or that of the quesited.

IE. If you asked about someone's father's son, we would look at the house representing that individual's father. Like the 4th from the 7th as the father. Then the 5th from the said 4th for the child or son of the father. That is a technique used by the Ancients for centuries and one our host and her esteemed confederates of horary wisdom would support.

IE. (2)If you asked a question about your sister's election to an office would you go to the 7th as you knew her name or the 3rd for siblings? You would go to the third and possibly skip every other house till you found the rank of the sibling that she represented: then you'd look at her 5th for the election would you not?

IE. (3) I asked a horary a few years ago on Oct. 14th, 2004 about the re-election of Bush. An adept horary astrologer straighted me out as I too had originally opted to use the 7th for Bush. But as this icon of horary pointed out it was the 5th of the 10th that had my answer correctly as Bush was President. On one of Skyscript's forum's Saraxi quoted me and praised my work nine months after the election as correctly delienated. If I had used the 7th a different outcome would have been arrived upon.

It doesn't matter if the two canidates are both Senators or not, as you have only asked about Senator Obama's election. It is well documented in horary lore that one does not go too far in analizing one's horary; we just seek an answer for our asked question. And your question is not about Obama's opponent or anything but Obama's possible outcome in this election.

Please email me if you would like the transcripts of that discussion and the horary in question!

I'm not being too critical, just stating that the Traditional methods of the Ancients like Lilly and before are much more worthy than mistaken notions of many of the Moderns who misunderstood much of the Ancient's lore!

I think all people forget that their questions are simply not valid. These questions have been asked too many times to have validity anomore. In fact for a horary question to be valid, it must be asked for the first time and this is not the case here.

ligtenneigan

Ligtenneigan, if your above statement were true, one could not do successfully horarys on racehorses or ball games as one would never know if another horary practicianer had previously asked the questions. As I understand the keyword is YOU in "you can not ask a horary but one time". At least in all the horary lore I have read this is how it is worded that I have read. I'd be very interested in seeing the source and quote from notable Ancients that stated it the way you presented this concept! :shock:

Clinton Soule

Clinton Soule wrote:RC, the principle of horary that you are missing is in Traditional Horary certain houses become the house representing the matter as well as how we find the derivative house, or that of the quesited.

IE. If you asked about someone's father's son, we would look at the house representing that individual's father. Like the 4th from the 7th as the father. Then the 5th from the said 4th for the child or son of the father. That is a technique used by the Ancients for centuries and one our host and her esteemed confederates of horary wisdom would support.
Clinton Soule

Hello again Clinton:

Thanks for the mini-review but I know all about derivative houses. But in a case where you do not have a relationship with the quesited, you use the 7th. It was in my mind as I asked the question, that I would put BO down as the 7th house so that's the one I am sticking with for this question. And also because it does describe McCain & Palin and what was going on at the time which confirmed it for me. I haven't looked at the 11th and so don't know if that would look good for him or not.

Since you feel strongly that the 7th is the wrong angle here, why not go ahead and give us a reading on the chart using the angle you would have used. I posted the chart for people to read it after all. Just because we differ in our approach, that shouldn't dissuade anyone from pitching in.


btw, I answered your email but it doesn't appear in my sent mail. The mail system here doesn't always work properly it seems! Let me know if you get it.

RC