Hi Deb,

Mark wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that without Ptolemy and his influence astrology would never have survived. Is that correct?

Deb wrote:

No I would never suggest that, only that the scenario you asked us to imagine, of what if the Anthology of Valens had been the main text passed from the Arabs to Europeans rather than Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, wasn?t plausible. There seems little point in imagining what might have happened as a consequence of that, as if it was nothing more than bad luck for Valens that Ptolemy?s work attracted the historical attention, (ignoring all the important reasons why astrological history unfolded as it did).

As the facts of history stand your position sounds fully justified. You'll have to excuse my interest in such hypotheticals. One of my interests outside astrology is 'alternative history' where historians speculate on how events might have unfolded with one key event in history taking a different turn. I suppose what I was really getting at was a thought experiment to imagine what an alternative history would look like where the Tetrabiblos of Ptolemy had never been transmitted to the Arabs or the Latin west. So the issue was not about the Almagest and Ptolemy's contribution there. Equally, in a strict sense the point is not just about Valens specifically but rather how the astrological tradition would have carried on without the contribution of the Tetrabiblos. The Almagest would have had all its prestiege but Ptolemy wouldn't have been seen as an astrological author. You have already conceded that astrology would have continued even without Ptolemy's contribution in the Tetrabiblos. In such a scenario I would suggest that the lots would have played a more important role reflecting the position of classical astrology. Its an interesting issue I think but probably deserves a thread of its of own somewhere...maybe a 'what if' or fantasy astrology thread!

Deb wrote:

you made the comment ?Ptolemy was never more unrepresentative of classical astrology than in his approach to the lots? which seems to imply that he was unrepresentative in general terms, as I read it.

No I wasn't implying that. I also offered further clarification making that quite explicit.

In particular I stated:

However, Ptolemy was never more unrepresentative of classical astrology than in his approach to the lots. In that specific context I think its fair to describe his approach as maverick or idiosyncratic compared to his contemporaries.

Anyway, enough theory and speculation. Lets follow up the chart example approach already demonstrated.

Mark

In every case I would not say Vettius Vales was unknown or unimportant in the transmission of astrology.

Raffaelli in his thesis quoting Nallino and Panaino, which are not the first comers in these matters, says:

"One of the most influential work in Sassanid astrology was the one of Vettius Valens, called Anthologies. Its first translation dates around III century." Enrico Raffaelli , "L'oroscopo del mondo" pag.31.

And Bara in the French translation of the first book of Anthology
"he was for long time, the "maitre" the Teacher of genethliac astrology."

Even your John Dee had a copy of Valens in his library and Camerarius translates some passages in 1532 for some edition of Regiomontanus, so it looks like Valens was well known and one of the main texts until Middle Ages, he is neither an unlucky astrologer, or a discover of the modern traditional revival.

margherita

Even your John Dee had a copy of Valens in his library and Camerarius translates some passages in 1532 for some edition of Regiomontanus, so it looks like Valens was well known and one of the main texts until Middle Ages, he is neither an unlucky astrologer, or a discover of the modern traditional revival.

Hello Margherita,

I was aware Vettius Valens was transmitted through Persian and Arabic sources but I wasn't aware the full version of The Anthology was still available to European medieval astrologers. Surely, though like Ptolemy, Valens' Anthology had to be reintroduced into the west through translation? In terms of renaissance astrology I would have thought the fall of Byzantium in 1453 would have been a key event. In particular with ancient classical astrological texts like The Anthology being disseminated west through Byzantine refugees settling in Italy. Was The Anthology translated in western Europe before this? For example through Islamic sources in medieval Spain?

Mark

Mark wrote: Was The Anthology translated in western Europe before this? For example through Islamic sources in medieval Spain?

I don't think so. But in the preface talking about the manuscript versions Bara says "quoted and copied as in Antiquity as in the Middle Ages" in note CCAG codd. Romani.

p.s. For Valens fortune in Sassanian astrology, see too Pingree "Classical and Byzantine Astrology in Sassanian Persia"

margherita

I don't think so.

In which case it would seem that Valens was not an accessible source to astrologers in Europe (excluding Byzantium, and possibly Islamic Spain and Sicily) for almost 1000 years! Many historians date the end of the medieval era from the fall of Byzantium in 1453 ( or 1492-the reconquest in Spain and discovery of America). So Valens only really becomes an accessible source again for early modern astrologers in the west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period

If even they had not direct access to Valens text, they had through Arab astrology.
The same Ptolemy Tetrabiblos was known in the translation from the Arab; the translation from the Greek was published in 1548!

Pingree for example in "Classical and Byzantine astrology in Sassanian Persia":
"Having seen that Valens is indeed a source for
Masha'allah, we are not surprised to find in the
Liber Aristotelis a number of references to an astrologer
named Welis...."

Nallino dedicated "tracce di opere greche giunte agli arabi" to the fortune of three Greek texts, one of them being Valens Anthologies, well known between both Arabs and Indians (he quotes Al Biruni.)

The other- guess- it is Teucer of Babylon.


There is no doubt that between scholars, Valens has not reputation as a lost text without influence, but as one of the most important Greek work.

margherita

If even they had not direct access to Valens text, they had through Arab astrology.

True. I dont dispute that. Just emphasizing that western astrologers didn't have access to a direct translation of The Anthology until fairly late.

Mark wrote: True. I dont dispute that. Just emphasizing that western astrologers didn't have access to a direct translation of The Anthology until fairly late.

The same as Tetrabiblos, which was translated from Greek in 1548.

margherita

The same as Tetrabiblos, which was translated from Greek in 1548.

I think your point is more about a direct translation from Greek for either text.
But surely there is a fundamental difference? Western astrologers had no access to any version of The Anthology until much later. It was different with the Tetrabiblos wasn't it? The Tetrabiblos was first translated from Arabic into Latin in the 12th century. In particular Plato Tiburtinus (Plato of Tivoli) first translated the Tetrabiblos from Arabic into Latin in 1138 CE. Plato of Tivoli was an Italian mathematician, astronomer and translator who lived in Barcelona.

Anyway, I must get back on topic. I want to discuss an excellent article on the Lot of Fortune and Spirit by Dorian Greenbaum which raises some interesting new issues into the thread.

Mark

Mark wrote:
I think your point is more about a direct translation from Greek for either text.
But surely there is a fundamental difference? Western astrologers had no access to any version the Anthology until much later. It was different with the Tetrabiblos. It was translated via Arabic and then Hebrew sources into Latin several centuries before this.

The fact that Tetrabiblos was not translated directly from Greek is not a marginal point for what will happen in 1400 and 1500 between scholars and astrologers.

Obviously I understand the fact that you complain the lack of a complete translation of Valens with his name on the book, but what was REALLY lost in your opinion?

Profections? Solar returns? Something else? There is no Middle Ages or Renaissance astrologer who did not know those techniques and did not explain in his books with tons of details.

I agree with Deborah that above wrote:

Ptolemy?s influence didn?t steal attention away from other works as is sometimes suggested

Surely Ptolemy had the gift to (apparently) put in easy words and in more coordinate way some ideas - some books are impossible to read- try Albumasar On the great conjunctions or even the On the revolutions of the years and let me know what you understand.

But from this to say that all the rest of astrology was neglected- especially for authors like Vettius Valens which all the scholars mention as example of transmission of Greek astrology to Pahlavi/Arab one and one of the most influential Greek texts......

margherita

But from this to say that all the rest of astrology was neglected- especially for authors like Vettius Valens which all the scholars mention as example of transmission of Greek astrology to Pahlavi/Arab one and one of the most influential Greek texts......

Ptolemy?s influence didn?t steal attention away from other works as is sometimes suggested

Where are you getting all this from Margherita? I have never suggested anything of the sort. I was simply making a very specific point about when a translation of the Anthology appeared. You are drawing quite incorrect conclusions on what my view is. I already acknowledged the influence of Valens through the Arabs. Although many ideas are filtered through a different astrological perspective. For example the use of quadrant houses.

Obviously I understand the fact that you complain the lack of a complete translation of Valens with his name on the book, but what was REALLY lost in your opinion?

I think if there had been a direct translation of Valens earlier there might have been a better understanding of the importance of whole sign houses in the Latin West. Ptolemy is too ambiguous on the houses to be sure exactly what system he used. Also Valens direct natal examples showing classical natal technique in action. Understanding of planetary sect would probably also have remained clearer as the later Arabs altered this important feature of classical astrology with diminished emphasis on whether a chart was day or night. This would have reinforced other classical texts such as Tetrabiblos and Mathesis.

Perhaps its time we both steered back to the thread topic? .

Mark

Hello all,

I think that by the time Valens et al becomes directly available in Europe the 'scientizing' emphasis had already taken hold (and there is some blame to be laid on Ptolemy for this ) and most of astrology begins to be rejected in favor of scientific approaches. This, along with anti-Muslim sentiment and the increasing religious intolerance of astrology on both Reformist and Catholic sides made any profit gained from using Valens et al unappealing.

Mark, what and where is this Greenbaum article?