Strangely, I was looking at Hitler's chart the other night - I think he's something of an exception as his horrible Saturn exactly conjuncts his possibly even worse Mars/Venus conjunction in Taurus by antiscion.

I'm also not entirely convinced that well-dignified malefics are good things - I think a lot is going to depend on the house they're in, and the house they rule. For example, I can't really see Saturn or Mars on 7 as a good thing. I suppose if it's not only well-dignified but superbly aspected, you might end up with a marriage partner who's older and wiser, or perhaps a military hero (the kind who came by it defending the innocent or something else truly honourable), but mostly I have to go with that 'a-ha' moment the first time I read Sahl - Saturn rules misery and Mars rules conflict.

Pretty much seems to hold true, as well as the old maxim that what's good for the planet isn't always good for the person.

My teacher used to explain the difference (and that's in accord with traditional astrology and based on Morin's method) based on the accidental strength of the planet. So in Hitler's case it the debilitated Saturn is ominous as it is in the 10H, and in square aspect with debilitated Mars in his 7H, which also happens to be the ruler of his Asc (if I'm not mistaken he was a Scorpio rising?) But even if I'm mistaken, he had highly malific planets in square and on the angles. My teacher used to say, "repetition" builds up intensity -- that could explain why he did what he did, as opposed to millions of others with this placement who were not such dark figures in human history.

Hitler had Libra rising. But just as bad, as the Venus half (or third, if you count the antiscial conjunction of Saturn to the Mars/Venus conjunction) was involved. Plus he had a Moon/Jupiter conjunction in Cap.

I was just reading Firmicus, and he says that Saturn on any angle at night is pretty disastrous. 'He destroys wives and children and always predicts grief from loss of relatives'.

One of my clients with Saturn in Cap on the MC experienced the death of his father at age two.

My Saturn on an angle at night (less dignified) has produced pretty much the same thing, just substitute 'husbands' for 'wives' there.

And all those folks with the Saturn/Mars opposition on the ASC/DSC that I seem to attract....

Is sect the missing link? Saturn isn't a nice planet to begin with, but I think I've seen it out of sect way more often than I've seen it in sect, for whatever odd reason.

I have read some analyses of Hitler's chart, yet they all fail to account for the extent of his evil. Is it not a rather ordinary chart? What's so extraordinary about it? I don't believe that we can see in a natal chart historical events, unless we tie the chart in question to the larger cycles of which it is a part (i.e. its era).

Olivia wrote:
I was just reading Firmicus, and he says that Saturn on any angle at night is pretty disastrous. 'He destroys wives and children and always predicts grief from loss of relatives'.

Hi Liv,
What exactly of Firmicus were you reading?

The Mathesis - it's in Liber Tertius, Point 21.

21.
Saturn by night on the MC indicates misfortunes: loss of inheritance,
no marriage, no children, especially if he is in the house or terms of a malefic planet. But if a benefic planet, that is, Venus or Jupiter, is in favorable aspect to Saturn thus located by night, those things which were denied will be given in another way. But in general, Saturn by night on any angle indicates the greatest evils. He destroys wives and children and always predicts grief from loss of relatives.

Thanks!