hi graham,
i am trying to understand a few things in this so maybe you or someone else could help me out here. quote from gavin white "The basic pattern emphasises the great cross of the solstices and equinoxes - Jupiter and Mars, the most beneficial and malevolent planets, are located close to the stars that, by their rising, mark the summer and winter solstices respectively. "

i was unaware that mars was considered the ''most'' malevolent planet. i always thought saturn got that honour.

what i'd like to know is how has he latched them onto the summer and winter solstice here? is he saying the heliacal rising of jupiter and mars always happens in the same part of the zodiac and it happens to be next to stars that mark the summer and winter solstice like it sounds like he is saying? what stars do you think they would happen to be? 3 questions and if you have any ideas on any of them - please share your thoughts.

here is a fun little tool for exploring heliacal rising.
http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animat ... ingsim.html

James
White doesn't specifically say that Jupiter and Mars are places in the Babylonian texts are at there heliacal risings; he says that (as I understand him) only for Venus, Moon and Mercury. Jupiter is "between Cancer and Leo", and Saturn "in the Scales" (the Gu-text says "in front of the Scales, i.e. in early Libra?). The Sun he says is at the "Spring equinox proper", with Venus preceding it, Moon following it.
Jupiter would thus be on the summer solstice point some time in the 2nd millenium BC. Satunr (whihc is associated witth Sun) does not seem to be asmalefic as for us, at all. I think this tallies with ancient mythology - a "Golden Age" of Saturn etc. For Mars, he just says it's in the stars of the Goatfish: "As the most malevolent planet his special station has probably been placed on the lowest sector of the ecliptic to nullify his detrimental influence.
So Jupiter, most beneficial, would mark SS, Mars, most malefic the WS. Saturn marks the WS point (perhaps preceding it, by heliacal rising - if the autumn equinox is in late Libra, Saturn's place in early Libra would allow this).

is he saying the heliacal rising of jupiter and mars always happens in the same part of the zodiac and it happens to be next to stars that mark the summer and winter solstice like it sounds like he is saying? what stars do you think they would happen to be?

Not sure if you're thinking sidereally or tropically. Tropically, of course the stars marking the solstices will change. Sidereally the positions of the solstices will change. White says that Jupiter is "between Cancer and Leo", "'Jupiter behind the Crab (Cancer) in front of the Lion (Leo)'", etc. So he's talking about constellations and stars. That would date the idea to the 2nd millenium BC, when the SS was there. Saturn is not quite so clear, but seems to be deliberatly opposite the Sun, and White puts the Sun at the equinow "proper". Maybe they forget to move Mars back as precession kicked in, and left him right at the end of Capricorn (where the WS was sidereally when the SS was "between the Crab and the Lion").

It all seems logical to me - looks like the exaltations could be tropical in logic (expressed sidereally) and should be considered to mark the solstices and equinoxes, once they've been "straightened out". Even if the equinoxes and solstices were pinpointed by associated heliacal risngs of stars, it would also seem logical tha what they were trying to get at, with the "grand cross", was the points proper, not somewhere rising before them (except for the inner planets, Ve, Me, Mo, which would have this "herald" funcion).

Afraid I can't say more about what Gavin White means precisely, but that's how I understand it.
Graham

Mark wrote:

I have posted a fair bit on this topic in the past but dont mind getting involved here if we can widen the topic a tad.

I've changed the title of the thread, and a number of the points raised (possible Egyptian decan origin, Babylonian solstice/equinox origin) are not specifically about degrees. I mentioned degrees because I thought it was generally accepted that the exaltations were originally specific degrees, later extended to whole signs. I thought the degrees or degree areas may have preceded the organisation into signs.
So far, I'm pretty convinced by White and Conman's arguments that wheter the exaltations are of Babylonian (probably) or Egyptian (maybe) origin, they probably were designed to mark seasonal phenomena such as the solstices and equinoxes.
I still also think a fully sidereal option imight be valid, where they mark a sort of "ideal" location of the tropical points, which only truly match up once in a precessional cycle.
Graham