First I'd like to say this is such a GREAT thread for SO many reasons. It is one of the BEST, well spoken threads I have read in a long time! All contributors goals are to truly find a system that works, with excellent questions, no name calling, no harsh words, but true collaboration and interest in seeing if something works. Great questions posed, to fine tune the understanding and results.

I have really never been a fan of rectification because its mostly a crap shoot, a good guess at best, and really questioned the Primary Directions of after the fact, when I tried every Primary Direction and keys with my chart and could not even come up with ONE hit for any event in my life.

In reading some of the threads of James (Atlantean) I was very impressed with his work. He is also very patient with questions and always willing to take the time to explaln and share his knowledge, quite kindly, which also impressed me very much so. Not too many people do that or will charge and exhorbitant fee.

So I PM'd James (Atlantean) and discussed how I felt on Primary Directions, even after Reading Martins Book, and he was kind enough to run some for me but he did rectify my birth time, as I have two questionable time.

I have to say, I was VERY IMPRESSED!!! He did a great job, the PD's matched events in my life, and he was kind enough to explain it and took the time to do it, which as an astrologer I know is very time consuming and is always much appreciated.

I want to explore Polaris myself, and want to buy it when I pay for all the newer software and books I've just purchased.

I have been very busy lately or else I would have posted this earlier in the thread. I can't say I understand everything in this thread, but it has been most enlightening and great thread to read and learn from in so many ways. Thanks to all!

Hello MorningSun,

Thank you so very much for the very nice comments!

I was happy to be able to help you find which of the two birth times you had was the correct one. (and then refine that one to seconds of time)

Very glad that you're happy with and see the correctness of the results!

If you have any more major events that occur (and are willing to share), it would be interesting for me to share the Primary Directions for these new events to show the correctness of the original rectification.

Take care

James

Hello Juan,

Re: "Any suggestion by James about which event(s) could be the best place to start is much appreciated."

Look especially at the marriage. One of the most perfect exemplary directions for the event is exact. (Sun configured with the MC)

The birth of Daughter (Dec 7, 1865) has a very obvious direction. (Venus conjunct IC)

The death of Aunt is perfectly symbolized.

All of these rely on accurate Angles/Cusps, so any of them could have brought one much closer to the right birth time if one was already "in the neighborhood", and collectively they lead to the 24? 35' Virgo Ascendant.

For the death of Aunt, you have to be using Topocentric, since the 8th Cusp is involved in the direction.

Re: "So, James, you have given an excellent demonstration of how well Polaris works."

Thanks! Enjoy looking at the chart at events using other dynamic systems as well.

Have fun!

James

Atlantean

TOB for John Lennon still remains a controversy. What does Polaris say?
Am curious.
1940 Oct 9 Birth.

Some events:

1956 Jul 15 Death of Mother
1952 Aug 23 First Marriage
1963 Apr 16 Son Born
1964 Feb 6 1st Trip USA\
1964 Feb 9 Ed Sullivan TV USA
1965 Jun 12 Honored, Q Eliz
1967 Aug 26 Manager Brian Epstein Death
1968 Nov 28 Arrested
1969 Mar 20 Marries Yoko Ono
1970 Apr 15 Beatles break-up
1972 Mar 6 USA immigration refused
1974 Jul 18 USA immigration refused
1975 Jan 15 Back with Yoko Ono
1975 Oct 9 Son Born
1976 Jul 27 Immigration permitted
1980 Dec 8 Death

Atlantean wrote:Look especially at the marriage. One of the most perfect exemplary directions for the event is exact. (Sun configured with the MC)

Thanks for the tips.

I apologize for taking so long to reply. I was busy re-thinking and re-writing my software code so that the intermediate house cusps can act as promisors.

What I want to do at this point (I will be writing more as my time permits in the new thread you have opened) is a check or test to see if I can reproduce your results with the Topocentric system.

The first one you mention is the marriage on 10 June 1892, which you associate with exact Sun/MC. Ariondys found Sun quincunx MC, orb 0.9'. I get MC 150 Sun (direct) exact June 29, 1892, orb=19 days.

The birth of Daughter (Dec 7, 1865) has a very obvious direction. (Venus conjunct IC)

I presume you mean the first daughter, born March 1893. For this I get converse IC conjunct Venus on Dec 24, 1892

The death of Aunt is perfectly symbolized.

This was June 1893. I get:
converse Saturn 180 8th cusp = May 16, 1893
converse Pluto conjunct 8th cusp = Jun 22, 1893
converse Asc. 90 Mars = Aug 11, 1893

in another thread you say:

Atlantean wrote:the rectification birth time was found exclusively using Topocentric Primary Directions.

You have mentioned 3 events in relation to primaries, suggesting that I start from them. But you have not explained which events were the basis for the rectification out of the 1440 possible birth times/minutes. Presumably they were the 3 you mentioned?:

marriage:
Sun quincunnx MC
orb = 19 days

birth of 1st daughter:
Venus conjunct IC
orb = 40+ days

death of aunt who played the role of mother:
Saturn 180 8th
orb = 15+ days
Pluto conjunct 8th
orb = exact

In the other thread you mention 3 other events but leave primaries behind: the Death of Father, Marriage, Death of his Daughter, and his own Death.

I will continue my exploration of these, but keeping the primaries.

Juan

Hello Juan,

Very cool that you're working on the Topocentric Primary Directions for your program.

Re: Primary Direction at Wedding
The "19 day" calculation is wrong, Juan. There are only 2" (seconds) of orb for the inconjunct between them. I included the above positions so you could figure what you should be getting.

Re: First Daughter

Yes, it was the first daughter. At the moment I was typing that, I was distracted. (you can see that I also typed his birth date instead of the daughter's) Sorry... and IC conjunct Venus (0? 9.8' orb) IC at 26? 34' 1" Scorpio

Re: Death of Aunt
Re: Basis for Rectification

Polaris helped me to arrive at the rectified time. It uses all events equally (since it's a summation of the weighting of appropriateness of primary direction relative to the event type). I gave those particular events to test to because the symbolism is so obvious. We had been talking about manually rectifying and those events (ie. those aspects), anchored to, would bring you very close...

Before I had Polaris, I went to rectify my birth time using Astro (Topocentric Primary Directions). Since I knew 6:18 am was the recorded time...after some time, I had made that 6:17 because that was for sure the closest minute. With Astro, I looked at the main Primary Directions AROUND my events and like tumblers aligning in a lock, I arrived at 6:16:45. [I listed 8 of my major events on index cards and looked at the relevant aspects. Adjusting the time until the total accumulated orb was at minimum. This is just what Polaris does, but it also is weighting the aspects numerically across ALL event types for relevancy to the event. ie. ALL events factor into the final answer] Later, Polaris "helped me see" that 6:16:44 is "perfect."

In working with these, it has been observed repeatedly that the conjunction and opposition have orbs less than 0? 11', while all other aspects have orbs less than 0? 6'. If you are looking at a particular (potential) birth time and for someone's Father's death, there is a Saturn conjunct 8th, but it's to 0? 15', then that should lead you to investigate a time that brings that Saturn-8th aspect to within 0? 11'.

Take care

James

Juan wrote: What I want to do at this point... is ... to see if I can reproduce your results with the Topocentric system.

Ariondys found Sun quincunx MC, orb 0.9'. I get MC 150 Sun (direct) exact June 29, 1892, orb=19 days.

Astro displays:
105?55.6' / 255?54.7' MC/SUN R/R 150(d) 0.90'

It makes it seem as though MC was the moving point. It is a confusing but perhaps convenient way to display the results for when one puts it onto a wheel.

The left side, the MC, is the significator though. The promittor is the aspect of the Sun.

RAMC = 81?09'02"
RA of the Sun-150? = ~107?15'45"

107?15'45" - 81?09'02" = 26?06'43"
26?06'43" / 0?59'08.33" = 26.4922 years
JD of birth = 2402578.4444

26.4922 + 2402578.4444 = 2402604.9366
JD of progressing to 12:00UT Jun 10 1892 = 2402604.9516

2402604.9516 - 2402604.9366 = 0.015 = (5.5 days)

Morinus gave a date of 1892.06.04
(Jun 10 1892) - (1892.06.04) = 6 days.

0.90' = 5.4 days

The math closes. It's almost the simplest case. There was no specific topocentric-system-exception to account for.

Atlantean wrote:The "19 day" calculation is wrong, Juan. There are only 2" (seconds) of orb for the inconjunct between them. I included the above positions so you could figure what you should be getting.

Thanks, James, but no, it is not wrong. This is the correct result for the time of birth you provided elsewhere of UT 22:39:55 using the geographic longitude that I gave you (24e24), which gives MC 21,48.7 Gemini (RAMC = 5h24m20s).

Since you are showing a birth chart with MC in 21,51 Gemini, this means that: 1) Polaris has an error of 2+ arcminutes in the calculation of local sidereal time, or 2) you made your rectification with data taken from a celebrity database and slightly different birth geographic longitude, which allegedly you had not done.

Parenthetically, I think, the meaninglessness of birth times given to the second is demonstraded by this discrepancy.

Tavastehus and Hameenlinna are the same town, one is the Swedish name used at the time Sibelius was born, the other the original Finnish name.

Juan

the Death of Father, Marriage, Death of his Daughter, and his own Death.

For the death of the father on July 31st 1868 Ariondys using A.Marr's "Astro" found converse Ascendant semisquare Saturn and an orb of 2.63'.

Let's not forget that the local sidereal time I'm using differs by about 4 acrminutes from that used by Ariondys, and is based on the original data I provided which, allegedly was used by James A. to arrive at a birth time of 22h39m55s. With this in mind I get:

converse Asc 45 Saturn = Jun 10, 1868
orb 51 days
converse Pluto 135 Asc = Aug 19, 1868
orb 19 days
direct Saturn 45 Asc = Sep 19, 1868
orb 50 days

One wonders why the Pluto aspect does not appear in A. Marr's program listing shown by Ariondys. The two planets are in exact "in mundo" opposition, they have the same oblique distance to the meridian (OMD).

Presumably it is out of orb due to the use of a different birth longitude: Ariondys is using 24e28 taken from a database, I had originally provided 24e24.

Which birth longitude was used for the rectification, 24e24 that I gave or 24e28 taken from some database?

The death of Sibelius 3rd daughter "Kirsty" of typhus at the age of 1 year and 2 months is obviously a very critical event. This happened February 10, 1900 when Sibelius was 32. The only "deadly" angular contact at the time was:

direct MC 135 Mars = Feb 16, 1900
orb = 6 days

At the time of Sibelius own death, September 20 1957, I don't see any significant angular configuration, I see only non-angular ones:

c Satu 135 Nept = Jul 3, 1957
Nept 180 Mars = Aug 10, 1957
c Plut 45 Nept = Aug 22, 1957
Nept 150 Satu = Sep 22, 1957
Mars 90 Mars = Nov 24, 1957

Juan

Juan wrote: One wonders why the Pluto aspect does not appear in A. Marr's program listing shown by Ariondys. The two planets are in exact "in mundo" opposition, they have the same oblique distance to the meridian (OMD).

Death of Father
172?59.8' / 218?02.4' ASC/SAT R/R 45(c) 2.63'
219?26.3' / 174?35.4' SAT/ASC R/R -45(d) -9.10'
39?15.5' / 174?35.4' PLU/ASC R/R 135(d) -19.96'

shows OA/OD of Sat and Plu are 0?08' different. The PHI for the planets is not created from the OA/OD, it is created from the MDO(which is actually a perfect representation of a mundo placidus house position--I was kind of blind to not have noticed sooner but I discovered it to be so from looking at the formula)

The PLU/ASC will be measured from the declination of the aspect of the ASC to the house line of Pluto. The SAT/ASC will be measured from the declination of the aspect of the ASC to the house line of Saturn. The slighltly different Poles will cause a small amount of divergence in the angular seperation relative to what they had at the equator.

At the time of Sibelius own death, September 20 1957, I don't see any significant angular configuration, I see only non-angular ones:

http://juanestadella.com/Predictive-Ast ... adella.pdf
Death.
Typical: AS, MC, VIII cusp with Saturn, Pluto, Neptune, South Node or Sun.
Sometimes also with: XII cusp, Uranus, Mars or Moon.

82?26.8' / 142?23.8' 12/MON 60(c) -3.04'

The death of Sibelius 3rd daughter "Kirsty" of typhus at the age of 1 year and 2 months is obviously a very critical event. This happened February 10, 1900 when Sibelius was 32. The only "deadly" angular contact at the time was:
direct MC 135 Mars = Feb 16, 1900

Death of a daughter.
Typical: V cusp, IC, DS, VIII cusp with Venus, Moon, Neptune, Pluto
or South Node.
Sometimes also with: XII cusp, Mars, Uranus or Mercury

92?21.6' / 92?32.5' 11/URA R/R 0(c) 10.96'
113?00.4' / 247?57.3' MC/MAR R/R 135(d) 3.06;

Ariondys wrote:PLU/ASC R/R 135(d) -19.96'

With the the birth geog longitude that you are using (23n28), the Pluto 135 Asc aspect is exact Sep 14 1868, an orb of 45 days to July 31st when his father died.

We must keep in mind that the little A. Marr's DOS program was not designed to work for older dates in the case of Pluto. The error this program has in the position of Pluto in this case is rather large:

RIGHT ASCENSION:
correct = 44:59:24
A. Marr's "Astro" = 44:49:26

OA/OD
correct = 45:18:54
A. Marr's "Astro" = 45:05:34

The "Astro" positions are from your graph. They obviously should not be used in this case.

Death. Typical: AS, MC, VIII cusp with Saturn, Pluto, Neptune, South Node or Sun. Sometimes also with: XII cusp, Uranus, Mars or Moon.
82?26.8' / 142?23.8' 12/MON 60(c) -3.04'

Thanks. But a sextile of the Moon to the 12th house cusp signifying the native's own death would be --to me-- too far-fetched.

Death of a daughter.
92?21.6' / 92?32.5' 11/URA R/R 0(c) 10.96'

The exact time I get for this direction with the birth coordinates I am using is Oct 12th 1899, a little too far (121 days) away from Feb 10 next year when the event occurred.

Juan

Juan had wanted to explore the Primary Directions at events on his own and had asked me which ones were the real "anchors". I provided this information...
As I said, to just get to the right minute (let alone second) is a 1/1440 probability.

Before leaving the "Topocentric" directions (which by the way are not topocentric) I would like to recapitulate and make some critical observations.

1) James is/was working with a geographic longitude taken from a database and not the one I gave. This leaves doubts about the 1/1440 claim. As far as I am concerned the ability of Polaris to find the "time of birth" remains without demonstration.

2) A rectified time is not necessarily the time of birth, it is just a time that works best under the system and technical choices and general assumptions that constitute the rectification.

3) Topocentric directions are always "in zodiaco" and "under the pole of the significator", and the conversion key is that of Naibod. It also multiplies the number of possible directions by at least a factor of 4. These are very specific choices and changes from traditional practice that render its results non-comparable with other systems.

4) Some of these choices such as the large number of directions and the lack of weighting of the individual aspects give the impression to some of great precision, but to me they give the impression of superficiality (flatness, loss of depth) and of increasing meaninglessness.

6) The weighting is done in terms of the orb of the aspect, not in terms of the nature of the aspect. All aspects have the same weight and their individual meaning is ignored. For example: a quincunx between the Sun and the MC is accepted as significator of a marriage in the cultural context of urban Finland in 1892. The meaning and comparative weight of the quincunx is ignored. This as far as I am concened renders the aspect (the event-to-direction association) meaningless, I could never accept it as signifying marriage in that context.

7) Meaning in Astrology is multi-valent. For example: Venus conjunct the IC can be associated with the birth of a child, but also with the acquisition of a permanent home to live with or raise the family. The same aspect can be associated with different events, and the same event can be associated with different aspects: for example the progressed Sun conjunct Venus often coincides with the birth of a first child, but it can also be the time of the first love, or the coming to terms with the end of a marriage, etc. And the death of a parent can be symbolized by a transit of Pluto to the Moon without the intervention of the 8th house.

This multi-valency of astrological symbolism raises important questions about the assumtpion of "the one and only", "the only true" time of birth that renders all the other possibilities erroneous or "false". For this reason, I don't think it is acceptable or reasonable to equate "rectified time = time of birth". What you have is a working model, a model that is made of your personal methdological preferences, and that stands side by side with other models made of different preferences and different ""times of birth".

Juan