geoffrey,

i think you are wrong on that assumption. this fellow seems to carry a lot of weight globally.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-sunni- ... st-sharia/

Geoffrey wrote:

We might expect Shia Islamic scholars to say that....

From what I can see they are actually Sunni Muslim scholars. But of course there is no papacy in Islam.

Still, some Sunni Sharia scholars from the prestigious Al-Azhar University in Cairo, which is a world centre of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence, have stated that the so called 'Caliphate' declared by ISIS fails to meet important criteria required by the Koran and Hadith.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politic ... ction.html#

Nevertheless, so far, Al-Azhar has not issued any official stance regarding ISIS, with the exception of some statements made by the Grand Imam Sheikh Ahmad al-Tayyeb and some Azhar graduates, including Sheikh Alawi Amin. The latter believed that ?ISIS is a terrorist group which was born out of colonialism and US and Western intelligence for the purpose of slitting the throats of Muslims and dividing the Islamic nation.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Imam_of_Al-Azhar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_el-Tayeb

It will be well worth watching to see if the Grand Imam makes any more critical comments on the legitimacy of the ISIS 'Caliphate'.

However, not all Sunni's will necessarily accept the authority of the Grand Imam. Especially, the more extremist Salafis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

The Salafi trend in Sunni Islam has a lot of similarities to the Wahhabi school of Islam and the terms are sometimes seen as synonymous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement

Intriguingly, the only Islamic country where the puritanical Wahhabi/Hanbali school of Sunni Islam is exclusively followed is Saudi Arabia.....

In contrast Salafi leaning Muslims are found in every Sunni Muslim country. Self-described Salafis believe they are simply Sunni Muslims, while traditionalist Sunni critics claim that Salafis are the same as Wahhabis, a sect which is regarded as the most conservative, and puritanical of the four Sunni Islamic Sharia schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali#me ... b_Map2.png

Its probably not an exaggeration to say that Sunni Islam is going through a religious civil war. Its not just about the conflict between Sunni and Shia sects we see in locations like Iraq, Syria or Pakistan. For the hyper conservative Salafi even other other Sunni Muslims such as the Sufis are heretical since they follow practices not set out in the Koran and Hadith. For example, the worship of certain Islamic Saints shrines/graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

Since Sufism straddles both the Sunni and Shia sects many Salafis argue Sunni Sufis are effectively the same as Shia.

The whole Salafi movement is strongly reminiscent of the early protestant reformation in Christianity which sought to return to what was perceived as an earlier purer version of the faith derived exclusively from the scriptures.

Mark

At the end of the day, "might is right" and if al-Baghdadi succeeds in cementing his Caliphate in place militarily and politically, I suspect the learned Imams will find a way to legitimise it religiously...

Geoffrey wrote:

At the end of the day, "might is right" and if al-Baghdadi succeeds in cementing his Caliphate in place militarily and politically, I suspect the learned Imams will find a way to legitimise it religiously...

One reason for the caution of many Sunni Imams is that ISIS have a habit of murdering the ones that openly disagree with them. Apparently, hundreds have already been killed.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014 ... -Preachers.

From the article:

While ISIS has achieved unprecedented success in recruiting Muslims from Western countries to travel to Syria and Iraq and wage jihad, it has struggled to acquire the support of any officials within Sunni Islam. ..... Given the lack of authority within the group, the establishment of the so-called "Caliphate" is likely a violation of Sharia law.

Mark

I have read a post by the astrologer Peter Novak on a Facebook Mundane group.

He actually has evidence of a much earlier tweet announcing the Caliphate .He states the Tweet stating 'The Promise of Allah'' was sent at 12:05 AM Local time on Sunday June 29th.

These are his comments:

This link shows the earliest post of "The Promise of Allah" that I am aware of, and it is time-stamped 12:05 AM on June 29th. If we can assume that it was sent from the movement's official capital - Racca, Syria - then that gives us an Ascendant of 26.40 Aries.

https://twitter.com/al_e3tisam/status/4 ... 4953937920

I dont know why but I always felt uncomfortable displaying the later time provided for the tweet. Something about it just didn't resonate for me. However, this chart feels right to me. Maybe because we have nodes on the angles and Pluto back there too!

I will put up some delineation soon but feel welcome to beat me to it!

Mark



.

thanks mark,

well, i suppose we may never know so we are left to play with the different times that are suggested.

one feature i look for in a chart with greater significance is the sun/moon hitting an angle. another one is the angles - ascendant/midheaven hitting an important point.. this 12:05am chart has both.. sun/moon=midheaven axis, and asc/mid=venus/neptune.. so right away, i think the chart has that going for it to strengthen the expression of the sun/moon and the venus/neptune square and give the chart more prominence or significance.

another thought i had about this chart - regardless of where the angles are is the emphasis in cardinal with only 1 planet in fixed - that being saturn in scorpio retrograde.. in this chart it is also the out of sect malefic implying a more foreboding energy - sexual repression and repression more generally would seem to be part of the signature of saturn in scorpio. well, maybe just emotional baggage that is hard to let go of is another way i think of it. i think this placement has the ability to think about it's own death regularly which would ironically help in it's ability to survive! at least those are some of my thoughts on saturn in scorpio. it is a tough position with hidden fears that seem to move around having to integrate with others in some way whereby they know they are going to lose something of themselves in the process.. they would ultimately gain from this too.. maybe i am focused too much on this placement while neglecting to keep in mind how it is helped by the cancer/capricorn planets in the chart.. mars, it's ruler sits in saturns 12th house here, so the fear of being overtaken militarily or by another enemy must also be a part of this particular saturn dilemma..maybe that is justified too..

another feature of this chart which obviously some astrologers will like is the fanatic planet pluto on the midheaven.. i suppose the moon/jupiter down in the 4th house will appeal to some as well.. those 2 positions seem to sum up some of the angst and synergy of those who are attracted to this movement fundamentally.. an interesting coincidence is how the midheaven angle is exactly reversed for the chart i gave on the caliphate speech from a few days ago..

one other quick comment.. as these angles catch the pluto/uranus square, i think this square captures the zeitgeist of today.. there is a real conflict between the concept of freedom and state power as represented by these 2 very different outer planet energies.. fascism and totalitarianism are 2 types of political forms that seem to fit with the strongly divergent energies of these 2 outers. in this sense this chart catches this very well by being close to the angles..

Mark,

The problem is is that twitter feeds display the time to the account location - Peter is in central USA.

That is the same twitter feed that i originally had - my time says 08.05am - i am GMT.

Syria is -3 hours?

Nathan wrote:

Mark,

The problem is is that twitter feeds display the time to the account location - Peter is in central USA.

That is the same twitter feed that i originally had - my time says 08.05am - i am GMT.

Syria is -3 hours?

Hi Nathan,

Gosh this whole timing issue for the Caliphate must be at the top of my list for most frustrating topic ever here!

So just to clarify you believe Peter Novak was assuming the feed gave him local time from the sender. But you think it actually records the time of the receiver based on their time settings?

Assuming your right about that Nathan doesn't that make your originally proposed time of 2:05 GMT somewhat questionable?

Even with daylight assisted time the central USA would be at least 5 hours behind GMT. So the local time Syria would be more like 08:05AM no?

However, I checked and Peter Novak is in Indiana. Its one of those really frustrating states that comes under both Eastern Standard and Central Time Zone!

http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/ind ... zone.shtml

However, the vast majority of the state is EST. And they have daylight saying just now. So I assume his time was GMT-4. This would time his tweet to 4:05 AM GMT.

That being the case Syrian local time is currently GMT+3

So I would assume a local time of 7:05AM Syria based on that not 5:05?.

Incidentally, your comment above on 08:05am (BST or GMT?) doesn't make sense to me. Was this a mistake? As you know Syrian local time is 3 hours ahead of GMT just now.

Mark

Mark

Assuming your right about that Nathan doesn't that make your originally proposed time of 2:05 GMT somewhat questionable?

The chart is set for 05.05, Ar-Raqqah, Syria.

The 02.05GMT is universal time, which is -3 hours behind local time, set for Syria.

I think the most compelling evidence is the video and it's translated title that i posted. Not only for the title that has the words 'breakfast' and 'declaration' in it, but also for the light quality of the video. I am 100% certain that that is early morning/ just after/before dawn light.

Incidentally, your comment above on 08:05am (BST or GMT?) doesn't make sense to me. Was this a mistake? As you know Syrian local time is 3 hours ahead of GMT just now.

I think that probably was a mistake (08.05) that was probably posted before i realised the time difference and forgot to edit it.

The 05.05am chart is the result of educated guesswork and investigation. While i'm not declaring it to be 100% correct - i've also stated this on the other forums - i think it's probably closer to the actual time than the other charts that i've seen of that same day.

Nathan wrote:

The chart is set for 05.05, Ar-Raqqah, Syria.

Yes I am aware that is the time you have proposed here and on other forums.

Nathan wrote:

The 02.05GMT is universal time, which is -3 hours behind local time, set for Syria.

Yes excluding those that have lost the will to live reading this thread I think we have all got that GMT -Syria time differential by now!

Nathan wrote:

I think the most compelling evidence is the video and it's translated title that i posted. Not only for the title that has the words 'breakfast' and 'declaration' in it, but also for the light quality of the video. I am 100% certain that that is early morning/ just after/before dawn light.

I tend to agree it does look in the video that the light is not that bright and it looks like just before or at sunrise. Although that could an optical issue I think its unlikely. On the surface this might be strong anecdotal evidence to support your view. But then how do we know the tweet was sent before or during these celebrations? Maybe it was sent later as a promotion for the main event ie the release of three videos that day including Baghdadi's statement declaring the Caliphate?

In other words the decision to to tell ISIS supporters in the early morning on the first day of Ramadan may be a very different issue from when this was declared to the world via both twitter and the release of videos online.

The main problem I have with the 5:005AM time is that it doesn't really match the time stamped tweet that Peter Novak provided a link for. You did inform us that said Social Media like this provide reliable timing. So taking your statement literally the 5:05AM simply doesn't match what the twitter record is telling us!

Logically, there are only two explanations here:

1 Your time is correct and the Peter Novak tweet is not recording an accurate time.

2 The Peter Novak Tweet record is correct and the anecdotal evidence of the video celebration is misleading since the tweet was sent about 2 hours after sunrise ie 7:05AM.

I would like to clarify something Nathan that is not clear from your posts here. Did you rely on Peter Novak for your original Tweet time or did you access twitter yourself independently to get the 2:05GMT/3:05 BST time? You did mention a Facebook link providing the time for the tweet in your post here and that is why I am wondering.

Mark

Mark

I would like to clarify something Nathan that is not clear from your posts here. Did you rely on Peter Novak for your original Tweet time or did you access twitter yourself independently to get the 2:05GMT/3:05 BST time? You did mention a Facebook link providing the time for the tweet in your post here and that is why I am wondering.

He pointed it out with the 12.05am time. I then i looked at it displayed with the 08.05 time. I then trawled through all the other tweets from that day and translated each and every one of them. It was the earliest that i could find. That lead me to believe that the twitter feeds are displayed as local time. I then found that video and then the earliest news report that i could find on the 29th, which was from RT at about 10.30 am, i presume Russian time. What convinces me about this time is mainly the video footage and it's title.

The thing is, is that the tweet is somewhat confusing because a) the time it was sent and b) the time displayed. When i asked Peter his whereabouts, so i could discern his time zone, he replied 'I'm nowhere' or something like that. Only later did i find out his time zone.

But the video shows the live action happening on the ground, with the Sun rising. There are other videos taken at the same time, but posted later. Although the time might not ne 100% accurate, i think it's quite close - we have a retrograde Mercury in the 12th, for example.

I guess that the best course of action is to take the 3 different charts and just keep a beady eye on what's happening - maybe then something will reveal itself.


My brain is hurting!

Nathan wrote:

But the video shows the live action happening on the ground, with the Sun rising. There are other videos taken at the same time, but posted later. Although the time might not ne 100% accurate, i think it's quite close - we have a retrograde Mercury in the 12th, for example.

I am thinking of abandoning the tweets altogether as a source and just using the sunrise chart as a symbolic moment.

I guess that the best course of action is to take the 3 different charts and just keep a beady eye on what's happening - maybe then something will reveal itself.

Which 3? You mean 5:05AM. 7:05AM or 8:05AM? Dont forget we have a possible 5PM or 4PM GMT time for the global release of the Caliphate statement online!

My brain is hurting!

Yeah me too. I just found myself writing 'Caliphate' rather than my name when trying to log in here earlier.

I definitely need to a break from this thread/topic!