just going on the concept of using solar returns with profections, here is what i have...

the 12th house emphasis for 1953 starting sept 23rd and covering the events for feb 54 has jupiter as ruler of the pisces ascendant..of course jupiter also rules alex's 9th house too.. in the natal chart it is in the 3rd house/sign and the planet that is the highest latitude - following thru on what we had been talking about in another thread! and jupiter rules the moon in pisces.. the moon is a singleton planet, the only one above the horizon and in the opposition to the neptune-sun-mars conjunction.. it is a nighttime chart, so further emphasis on the subjective nature of the moon which is also emphasized with most of the planets below the horizon line as well...

i like to look at the solar return chart as the outer wheel with the natal chart on the inside.. therese's chart doesn't really do this because the sr ascendant is used as the root for both... here is how i like to look at it..


one notes the moon and jupiter in the sr chart is in the same sign as the natal chart.. i am intrigued by the conjunction of uranus from the sr chart to jupiter in the natal chart.. so is it possible for a 12 or 13 year old boy to have some type of religious experience, or is it more like what therese or stefan are saying - a move to a foreign land, or an outstanding issue involving the father? what about some surprising revelation on a mental level?

i am also intrigued by the close conjunction of neptune-sun and mars... i associate all this with a weak father figure.. i have often wondered how an astrologer connects the virgo sun with rulership over it's own 12th solar house... i have a close virgo sun friend with virgo rising - great musician - but very low key and always wanting to stay far away from the limelight... something about the virgo sun ruling leo is odd...

as therese pointed out - this is a full moon chart too.. it is also a full moon in the solar return chart with moon applying to mercury in virgo.. the nodal axis in the solar return chart is on the midheaven axis in the natal chart.. the moon rules the 4th house which is the end where ketu is in the sr chart.. perhaps something fateful to do with the family makes the most amount of sense..

i wonder about a possibility of the boy finding out his dad is not his real dad or something like that..(or is it his mom is not his real mom?) i could see either of this with the neptune-sun-mars pattern and with the moon in pisces theme here.. an overly sensitive child comes of age by finding out stories about his father or mother that aren't what he thought they were... this would fit with the profection lord jupiter to an extent.. jupiter rules 3 and 12 houses in the solar return chart..

------ non profection/ solar return related...

the solar arc data has pluto exactly square the ascendant from the 4th house - some type of transformative change again with family or home.. sr moon is exactly opposite natal mars - the ascendant and 8th house lord.. but perhaps the most significant one for me is sr saturn exactly square his natal moon - again some sadness or serious cloud around the home and family, perhaps involving the mom more then the dad..

this feels like trying to shoot fish in a barrel, lol... alex chart implies a very sensitive person with moon in pisces, sun-neptune conjunction and all the planets excludng moon beneath the horizon.. thanks for the challenge aj!

James, are you looking at this with whole sign houses? It's good that your chart is using the natal houses for a base whereas I'm using the SR houses for a base. It will be interesting to see if one set of houses or the other best reflects this important time in Alex's life. I was wondering if you consider both Moons in the 12th house since the natal Moon is just at the beginning of Pisces?

I always place more emphasis on the lunar mansion of the Moon rather than the sign, but I didn't consider the mansion in this case as I was looking at houses as the key to events.

hi therese,

i am thinking moon is in the 12th house as it is the same sign as the 12th sign to the aries ascendant.. both moons are 12th house/sign... how about jupiter square mercury, since someone mentioned moon trine jupiter - out of sign stuff... mercury is stationary retro in this chart - kind of like hamishs... jupiter-mercury square is more muddled mind as i see it..

i can use the sr chart as a base too, but then it is on the inside with the natal chart on the outside like this



i suppose it is good to look at them both ways... i prefer an emphasis on how everything is situated in the natal chart... this is hard to see and i have too many planets and symbols on the chart, but as one can see you don't get the impression of a beneath the horizon line emphasis in the above chart.. it is more western hemisphere emphasis - a byproduct of the solar return emphasis over the natal chart emphasis..

i haven't worked with lunar mansions enough to offer a view on that! however as memory serves the natal chart and the solar return chart moon to sun dynamic is considered negative as memory serves from my limited knowledge of moon to sun relationship..this is arabic thinking.. i know indian astro says full moon is very positive.. that is not what some other schools of astro say... i don't have a horse in that race..

This is a very good study comparison when it comes to houses, James. For example, is it significant that the natal ascendant is in the SR 4th or significant that the SR ascendant is in the natal 10th?? When we know the event, how will these positions play out? I don't think we can overlook the significance of transiting Uranus on Jupiter on the cusp of 3rd, and this shows up best using the natal chart as a base.

the way i look at it the natal chart is more ongoing.. the solar return chart is a passing event type chart... so, i like to emphasize the one over the other, but i think it is good to look at them both ways..

you're right! maybe we will get more insight after the fact... this is usually how it works!

back to alexs chart.. i see moon at the venus-neptune midpoint.. that seems like a real idealization of the mother figure... moon is in opposition to neptune.. that is the next aspect it makes after birth.. that doesn't have to mean giving up the child for adoption.. i think neptune is about the theme of adoption, or letting go of something you can't hold onto.. drugs - neptune - will let go of reality for you too... in the 1953 solar return chart the moon applies to an opposition to mercury.. these are the 2 planets connected to the mind.. in opposition or square - i think this is a mental challenge... one part of your mind is pulling you one way and the other part in the opposite direction... i wonder what the theme is for alex in this particular year? in the solar return chart moon rules the 7th while mercury rules the 6/9 houses.. i could see this working with the idea of a move.. having to let go of the relationships you had made and the adjustment required in all this.. at this point i am just spinning my wheels in the mud, lol..

James wrote:

the way i look at it the natal chart is more ongoing.. the solar return chart is a passing event type chart... so, i like to emphasize the one over the other, but i think it is good to look at them both ways..

Actually in his new book (translation of Abu Ma'shar) Ben Dyles makes the point that the natal chart is only a person's chart at birth. From there it begins to move which is why we have progressions, solar returns, profections, etc. I don't remember if he is quoting Abu Ma'shar on this or if this is his own view.

I haven't had much time to study that new big 700 page book to see how Abu Ma'shar combines the solar return and profected chart. I just considered what was the most obvious. For example, the profected ascendant is in the solar return third. This places the natal Neptune/Sun/Mars cluster in the 9th house. But if we leave the profected ascendant in natal 12th, then this cluster is in the 6th profected house. Then the natal chart wouldn't be changing.

i agree with some of that too therese... nothing remains the same.. of that we can be certain, lol.. i haven't looked at the book yet, but i did get it in the mail a few days ago.. i am still chipping away at jp goels divisional chart book and a book by dr. charak called yogas in astrology... off to read now!

Thanks, everyone for your great responses.
I will wait until Monday before giving out the event and some comments just in case there is someone else who might want to participate. Better late than never and more the merrier.

I will have more time then too. Thanks again, everyone.

I've been reading over the responses we've all submitted. So many different ways of viewing the symbolism of planets!! I'm sure if anyone else submitted a post, we would see yet other ways of interpreting symbolism. It's really true as Rob Hand has pointed out: How are we to choose amidst the many ways planets can manifest, not to mentions signs and houses?? Shiva's curse seems to be always operating. Without Divine perception, are we only playing a game that we can't win?

Astrology does keep us young because we never stop studying and learning and trying to figure out the puzzles of astrology. Probably we learn the most from retrospective views. Until the next time when for some reason the symbolism has shifted, and what we think we learned doesn't apply exactly in the same way!

In many ways astrology does seem to be a shifting kaleidoscope from our limited point of view. For example, for each new presidential election that happens here in the USA, astrologers are sure this time they can get it right. But often once again they are disappointed and surprised by results. But none of us would want to trade our study of astrology for anything else!

It seems that reading Alex's solar return correctly for this year, it matters a great deal whether the natal Moon is in the 11th (cusp as center of house) or 12th (whole sign houses). The Moon's dispositor and star lord is Jupiter in the 3rd which has the solar return conjunction of transiting Uranus. House 3: house of younger siblings, hands and arms, change of residence. The western classical tradition also gives traveling abroad for the 3rd house, perhaps because it's opposite the 9th.

Hospitalization with diet restriction (diabetes / chest infection / brain related issue)

Thanks, Stephan, Therese, James, and Map for your participation.

I don’t know who first said it but speaking about astrology in general, ‘Ah, hindsight, the most savory of all astrological dishes (techniques).’

This seemed a good warm-up exercise so it didn’t seem warranted to put any restrictions on techniques so long as everyone incorporated a solar return and hopefully the progressed ascendant or profection with Varshphal or a western solar approach. Since it was an ADB chart no great effort was made to cloak the identity other than change up the name.

In February of 1954, Alex was raped by his stepfather and was abused for several years after.

[Interesting that in Alex’s natal, the Jupiter/Moon aspect is out of sign. Does this suggest a step-father? Ju ruling the 9th of father and Moon the 4th of home/parent/mother. There is a natal 3rd/12th house connection here to the SR, can you see it in the Muntha? Stefen and James pointed this out too.]

[Stefan in his analysis pointed very accurately to the troubles with the childhood, family and even the father. James noted the familial trauma and trouble with the parents though leaned more to the mother’s side. Therese more than anyone struck out to use the profection as a real tool in the analysis of the solar return by turning the chart etc.; this needs more study for sure. I really admired her astrological logic in this regard. Map did not describe his method but I can see how his delineation of ill-health stood out to him based on this chart. These kinds of analysis are incredibly hard. Therese has rightly pointed out how difficult it is to choose amongst all of the significators available to us. With live clients, this is not a problem as we usually have some idea of the history of the situation and that uncanny connection you cannot get just from a chart. Skeptics would call it cold reading a client. I’m not so sure it is that simple.]

I was going to extract pertinent quotes from the posts with some comments but I am unexpectedly time-challenged today. I apologize because I intended to be a better ‘thread-keeper.’

As far as the profection (also called Muntha, progressed ascendant) falling in the natal 12th whole sign house of losses and isolation certainly resounds as a theme for the year and yet in the solar return falls in the third whole sign house. Now the third SR house is ruled by Jupiter Lord of the SR12th which is badly placed in the SR6th house of disputes/physical health. At least for this natal chart, both these positions speak to the theme of the year for Alex. I guess what I am saying both should be considered. In Varshphal the Lord of the Muntha and its placement/condition is very important for the year.

Therese noted the puzzlement we all may have had due to the profection falling in the SR3rd and how that doesn’t chime with the natal 12th (If you didn't read carefully, note earlier the comment about the link between the SR Muntha and the natal chart), but I do remember being told once that the third house is a ‘house of sorrow’ and also rules mental instability in Uttara Kalamrita. The third is the house of our understanding and SRJu in the 6th damages Alex’s understanding and initiative. The SRMoon is certainly highly activated with the mutual aspect it has with Mercury. Mercury is the Year Lord in the Varshphal (Indian solar return), lord of the SRSun and associated with malefic 8th lord the Sun the natural significator for father in the ninth house of father. In hindsight, the mental and physical trauma significations are there. Rahu's affliction to the Sun and both SRMars and SRVenus in the SR8th of death and deathlike experiences. Both of the passion planets here and badly placed is very fitting. SRRa is afflicting both SRSu, natal Ma and SRIC. SRKe afflicts the SRMC. The 8th, of course, is associated by many with sex though I feel this is a bit overblown, the 8th has more to do with the marriage tie and the 8th lord as a malefic influence on other planets and houses could bring this about, but usually Rahu’s negative influence here and on Venus gives rise to excessive urges of this nature. Indeed natal Ra is closely associated with SRMa and SRVe.
[Don’t know if many of you know this but the 12th house is the significator of conjugal happiness in Indian astrology.]

Nope, never would have seen it!! But it does match natal Pluto on the 7th cusp of the solar return which James mentioned. And the 9th house didn't relate to travel. It related to another common association of the 9th house, the father (also the stepfather apparently?).

If we're looking for a Rahu connection, in the solar return, transiting Mars is conjunct natal Rahu on the 8th cusp. But I didn't give that much emphasis. So the natal Mars (on SR cusp 9) and transiting Mars (Mars on 8th cusp) take priority in this return chart.

Another thought: If we count the Uranus conjunct natal Jupiter, this is in the 6th house of the solar return which seems more significant than the natal 3rd.

So this truly was a 12th house year, the profected ascendant sign, natal Neptune/Sun/Mars in the profected 7th, traditionally the house of sexual relationships, but this time related to violence against Alex.

AJ, since Alex is an elder now, can you give us some details about his life as a whole to round out his natal chart?