Martin Gansten wrote:

Nixx wrote:Also Cancer/Leo in the tropical Zodiac now and both Zodiacs when they merged into this ''divine (semantic) synchroncity'' , correspond to the days being lighter.

... unless you live in Australia. Or Botswana. Or Argentina. You get my drift...

I'm not sure I do if the intentional occult Synchroncity of the sign meanings seemingly emerged from a blending of Constellational imagery and Mythology with Northern Hemispheric Seasonal or Calendrical associations.

A sceptic might say why would this teleological Cosmos 'arrange' this at the dawn of (Western) Astrology. Because, 2 thousand years later we have unresolved and endless problematic, for both Zodiacal subscribers, discussions which only serves to increase the daily ridicule.

Nixx wrote:I'm a Pisces and when I go into houses with crystals and incense my initial response is to think about how to blow it up or murder the inhabitants. If you smoke quality fags, as I do, incense ruins the experience as do herbal teas and other manifestations of quasi hippy gumbo.

Maybe you need a change of zodiac system Nixx - or perhaps start smoking something else that chills you out a bit

Nixx wrote: Depends what you mean by stereotypical and modern.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MGWi3aNKb6s/T ... lawney.gif

I would say through a Psychological Lens as Pisces (Tropical) is a Water, therefore Rational sign, it is less likely to get involved in more ''New Age'' notions and potions such as crystals, incense and various ambient projected into talismans than the Fire/Air irrational 'away with the fairies' population.

Erm not to detract from this thread further, but I'm not sure what version of psychological astrology you studied that suggested that Water was a rational element and Air was irrational. In fact that's outright contradictory to everything I've read of modern psychological astrology. I believe you said on another forum that you were a follower of the CPA, but in the CPA Air and not Water is the rational element. In fact air and earth are generally considered rational with fire and water considered less rational.

This is off topic in a sidereal forum of course, but I do think that if you are to follow tropical astrology you have to be aware of the potential logical problems it raises for the southern hemisphere. Of course if the sidereal argument that the luminaries are NOT assigned to Leo and Cancer because of seasonal attributions is correct then of course this very same argument neatly solves the southern hemisphere problem for us - at least with regards rulerships. There are other problems of course.

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Deb wrote: Maybe you need a change of zodiac system Nixx - or perhaps start smoking something else that chills you out a bit

It's the same problem with the Ganga weed. Incense gets in the throat and makes smoking an unpleasurable experience. If you are seeking to reduce your lifespan or die a long painful death after a lifetime of sensual Sweet Aftons then it seems irrational, if not idiotic, to expose oneself to material substances that reduce ones oral, or oedipal, pleasures.

Nixx wrote:If you are seeking to reduce your lifespan or die a long painful death after a lifetime of sensual Sweet Aftons then it seems irrational, if not idiotic, to expose oneself to material substances that reduce ones oral, or oedipal, pleasures.

Do you lack air in your chart?

Paul wrote: Erm not to detract from this thread further, but I'm not sure what version of psychological astrology you studied that suggested that Water was a rational element and Air was irrational. In fact that's outright contradictory to everything I've read of modern psychological astrology. I believe you said on another forum that you were a follower of the CPA, but in the CPA Air and not Water is the rational element. In fact air and earth are generally considered rational with fire and water considered less rational.

This is off topic in a sidereal forum of course, but I do think that if you are to follow tropical astrology you have to be aware of the potential logical problems it raises for the southern hemisphere. Of course if the sidereal argument that the luminaries are NOT assigned to Leo and Cancer because of seasonal attributions is correct then of course this very same argument neatly solves the southern hemisphere problem for us - at least with regards rulerships. There are other problems of course.

Bad typo on my part should have written Earth not Air. Water remains Rational. What led you to think it was perceived by Psychological Astrologers as Irrational?

''Jung arranges these four functions into two pairs of opposites. Firstly there are the two perceiving (or, non-rational) functions of Sensation and Intuition. Secondly, there are the two judging (or, rational) functions of Thinking and Feeling''.

http://www.transpersonalscience.org/types.aspx

I once heard there was a Jungian influenced/shaped Psychological Astrologer in the USA who utilised the Sidereal Zodiac.

Follower of the CPA?, I may have written somewhere I was representing a text or two of from there in a post perhaps.


If the lights were not given to Cancer/Leo for Hellensitic heat reasons then is there an alternative occult narrative?

Nixx wrote: Bad typo on my part should have written Earth not Air. Water remains Rational. What led you to think it was perceived by Psychological Astrologers as Irrational?

Yes, that's true that Jung does refer to water as part of the rationale types, but psychological astrologers refer to Water as irrational and refer to Air as rational. Obviously the typo meant you didn't mean air. But they still refer to water as irrational. When Jung refers to rational and irrational he does not mean it in the colloquial sense. Perhaps you didn't either, and your typo is what made that not obvious

I don't think anyone can doubt Liz Greene's credentials as a psychological astrologer so I'll use her as an example, but in truth the same idea is found by several other authors.
Astrology for Lovers, Liz Greene

The element of water...is the most 'primitive' in that it is furthest from the rational realm that we are pleased to call human thought.
...
The water signs move like the realm of nature: with instinct, at home with that which is nonrational, unexplainable, sometimes magical. They are all motivated by feeling - and feeling, as everyone except a few fanatical material scientists will admit, is not something that you can measure by statistics, define by hypothesis, contain with rationally defined laws.

Clearly Greene is also using it in the colloquial sense of the word. This book is in fact littered with examples of water being referred to as irrational.

If the lights were not given to Cancer/Leo for Hellensitic heat reasons then is there an alternative occult narrative?

We don't know but we do know that sidereal astrologers do not buy into the logic behind the rulerhsips as put forth by Ptolemy.

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Paul wrote:

Nixx wrote: An idea which has some currency perhaps in more recent time is big eyes and Pisceans. Again why? , could be Jupiter as a ruler/co-ruler and its expansive functions I suppose.

The luminaries are the lights of the sky, some even claimed they were the eyes of god. That sun is the eye of god by day and the moon the eye of god by night.

I've never heard of the association with big eyes and Pisces though, but I would imagine that it's a modern take on it and probably to do with the stereotypical modern image of Pisces as being doe eyed and sensitive and barely able to move for all the crystals and incense surrounding them. Or perhaps they're just drunk.

I don't wish to intrude into the sidereal forum but that's not a modern invention.

Beautiful eyes are traditionally connected with Venus (which is exalted in Pisces) and phlegmatic (cold-moist) humor.

Those quotes are taken from my article on Liz Taylor, famous for having special eyes, with two lines of eye-lashes

Ptolemy:
Venus has effects similar to Jupiter?s, but is apt to make her subjects more shapely, graceful, womanish, effeminate in figure, plump, and luxurious. On her own proper account she makes the eyes bright as well as beautiful.

Giovan battista della Porta (1652):
(he classifies natives by planets, but he explains several times they take their virtue from the 4 temperaments)

Venus makes wonderful hair, and beautiful eyelashes, in walking and doing everything does not move a lot, of middle height. Others say it makes the face as a rose, and shining and moist eyes, inclining to look back, the excellent beauty.

This other is a small compilation about signs in traditional astrology written by Bezza:

CCAG xxii, page 191:
The woman is full of virtues, good looking, with beautiful eyes


And finally, from Yavana Jataka:

If Pisces is in the Ascendant, the native is a wealthy man, with expanded nostril and bright eyes...

(you would say that Indians would not use tropical zodiac, but it is evident they found it in Hellenistic texts, Ptolemy included.)

margherita