Skyscript Astrology Forum

It was Olivia's post that got me thinking. Strong Jupiter/Mars for military, and something related to the native and travel--9th.

Chart 5 looks promising, but I notice that Mars in this chart is in whole signs is in aversion to the MC, and to the Lot of Fortune. And with 9th house as Cancer, ruled by Moon in Scorpio in the first, it made me think if military then Navy.

I'm going to rock the boat in true newbie fashion and pick chart number 1.

Chart 1 has Mars and Jupiter in a very close (within a degree) sextile giving the strong Jupiter/Mars connection. In this chart Mars as the ruler of the MC is in the 9th, so career through the 9th house, in this case travel. Also in the 9th is Venus, in term and triplicity, as the ruler of the 5th which is what I would associate with risk taking (flying is risky business?) through the 9th. This is reinforced I think because Venus is also term and triplicity ruler of the ASC.

Mars in 9th is configured to the MC, and is ruler of and closely sextile PoF.

What clinched it for me though was the Moon in the 7th. I know Paulus was referring to pilots of ships, but there weren't any airplanes in his day.

"When the Moon obtains the seventh zoidion from the horoskopos as its lot, it will make for a life abroad. And if it should be found in the damp signs, when the birth is during the day, it will make shipowners, pilots, sailors..."

Well, Olivia's post got me interested so I started to examine from the 5th chart.

Now James you say:

1 of these 5 charts is someone who has had a military career specifically involving flying

So I started calculating Lot of Journeys which is taken from the Lord of 9th house to the cusp of 9th house [non reversed]. This lot, if I calculated it right, falls somewhere in the beginning of Leo which fits the description of being in 9th division and in 10th sign as to taking "journeys as a career". Moon as ruler of 9th is also, as Olivia said, on Ascendant, and she being significatrix of many changes and in 12th fivision - house often related with going abroad - is pretty good description that this person will travel a lot and will 'go abroad'.

Moon also has to do with traveling and wondering, according to Valens:

Voyages, travel and wanderings.

Moon separating from Venus [ruler of 7th] is applying to no other planet then Mars up elevated in the 10 sign and 9th division (again accent on 9th and 10th as to commingling this two significations of journeys and career) in Royal Solar sign of Leo alongside with the ruler of the Lot of Fortune [Jupiter], while being ruler of the 5th which is signifying the things we are enjoying doing, is giving me indications that Military career related to traveling is not excluded at all.

Lot of Work and Kingship, which is taken by night and day from the degree of Sun to the degree of MC and projected from the ascendant, falls around 16? Capricorn, which is second division, but 3rd sign, which is again related to journeys.

Mars being almuten of this Lot, gives us, again, pointers to that Mars up in elevation.
Furthermore, Moon traveling from Venus, will first meet Lot of Work and Kingship at 16? Capricorn, then Ascendant, and then Part of Fortune, up to squering Mars in elevation from the First house which is Mars' house.

Again, Mercury being Cazimi by longitude, and being ruler of MC, in the heart of the Sun casting opposition aspect to the Lot of Work and Kingship in the axis of 3/9 signs, while Sun having governorship over the Lot of Journeys and Mars as ruler of the Ascendant is showing that this man's career [Mercury] is somehow related to journeys [Sun] and military service [Mars] as was previously explained.
This is because according to some, Sun would have to express its nature [natural and accidental] through the planet which is cazimi. So we have the symbolizm here that he would shine in the world through 9th house matters [Sun ruler of intercepted 9th] on account of Mercury ruler of 10th of actions undertaken and career matters.

Too much indications on relation to journeys and military. It would be a pretty much shameful [and also funny] if I miss this one after so much indications noted

To add one more quote from Valens to finalize analysis of this chart:

Saturn, Venus, and Mercury make intelligent, clever individuals, shrewd and designing in their business enterprises. These men, however, are unsteady and frozen in their first enterprises. They become covetous of others? goods, accomplices in many crimes, seekers of curious lore, flexible, healing, enjoying newness, change, and travel. [p. 20 Riley]

OK. Let me check the other charts in this regard.

Now, chart 4 has Mars in 7th which is often related with persons who travels a lot. Mars is natural significator of journeys and 7th is often related to going abroad. According to Valens 7th signifies:

Marriage, success, an affair with a woman, friendship, travel.

This guy, however, has pretty nasty Mars. Debilitated in Cancer on the DC angle, showing possible violence and meeting martian people all around who are not nice at all. Rulling the 4th angle, again associated with death and ends, just entering 8th sign, ruling Fortune and being in square to Mercury as ruler of 8th from Fortune on IC! pretty nasty Mars really.

It is possible that this man died violently [having in mind that Saturn is in 8th from Fortune too while being ruler of 1st, and being contrary to the sect malefic].

Now chart 3 has also Lot of Work and Kingship somewhere around 24? Capricorn in 3rd division. And Moon is separating from its Lord Saturn and applying toward Venus in 9th while [Moon] ruling 9th, while this Moon is making trigon with Venus is making trigon with Jupiter too, also Venus and Jupiter, making nice Grand Trine [if I am right with the modern astrology terminology here], while Jupiter is exalted lord of 9th in 1st, this man seems to me more of a teacher kind, philosophy, religion, writing or so. Probably esoteric matters and occult because of a Saturn involved.

Sure, Mars appearing in the horizon and ruling asc, in 12th sign related to going abroad, is pretty interesting in regard of fighting for the place of profession, but I would go with the grand trine here.

Now, because I am a bit confused with 5 charts and we search for an army man who travels, I will get help from my old friend Al-Biruni and his:
Lot of Armies and police (Asc + Saturn - Mars)

Now, in this chart 3. falls somewhere around 9? Aries, making Mars Lord of it and aspecting it from the 12th sign, confirming my old theory of planet rising having to do something with the professions [which is still not approved from the astrology science world lol].

I am now divided between chart 5 and chart 3. hmmm

Duodenaria of Mars in chart 3 falls also around 12? Aries if I calculated it right 6 X 12 = 192 then counting from 0? Libra.
So, armies, police, military, Mars related somehow here in this chart.

Let me check in first chart [that is, chart 5].
Mars' duodenaria falling somewhere around 6? Taurus.

But here Lot of Armies and Police falls somewhere around 6? Libra which puts him in 10th by division, and its ruler is in 9th sign which would point out of traveling because of work related to army, police and military.
Moon, as we recall, separated from Venus [ruler of Lot of Army] and applying toward Mars, natural significator of soldiers and military.

I am still more inclined toward chart 5.

Now, chart 5 and chart 2 are similar in disposition of the planets through signs. These two persons are born in a few days apart.
Wow so many Air in this one, and Mars in 7th by division.
Hmmmm

Mars rules MC AND 9th division.
Lot of Army and Police here falls in 20? Pisces if I am not mistaken, and its Lord Jupiter is in 7th - house related to travel - alongside with Mars ruling the MC and 9th and natural significator of travel as well as of soldiers and military.

But no, with so many planets in 5th, I would say this is more of an entertainer.

So, I am still in doubt between chart 3 and chart 5, though more inclined toward chart 5.

Chart 1 has Moon in 7th as ruler of 7th separating from trine MC and applying toward Jupiter in 10th near Fortune and ruler of 2nd. I think this is some public persona and is making good money through career.
It is true that Mars is almuten of Ascendant and in 9th sign ruling MC, but it is in 8th division. somehow not so appropriate for the purpose we seek.

Well, I am already tired and it is almost 2 AM in my country, so I would definitely go with chart 5.

General Comments

I must say James has been a tough task master here (!) and set us an exceptionally difficult exercise. To some extent I think all of us have been forced to take a shot in the dark. There is not any traditional ideas to draw on when it comes to aviators or military pilots!

However, I found PFN comments very helpful. After researching Astrodatabank and other data sources myself I came to very similar conclusions.

I also thought Olivia?s comments make a lot of sense with the traditional focus on the Mars?Jupiter connection in military charts. I decided to make that pivotal in my assessment of charts. However, it looks like James has anticipated us looking for that with so many sample charts with strong connections in that respect. It looks like a few booby traps have been laid for us! I think this is far tougher than a random selection of charts would have been selected by a non-astrologer. In addition a 3rd-9th house focus would fit well if we can find it reflected.

I have observed that fighter pilots have more focus on the Mars influenced signs rising (Aries, Scorpio and Capricorn). Although the air and other fire signs do feature a lot too along with the luminares. The only signs that don?t seem to feature very often as rising signs are Pisces, Virgo and Taurus. Unfortunately, James hasn?t thrown us any bones here with those signs rising in any sample charts.

From my own research I have detected a difference between career civilian and successful military pilots. The former have a heavy focus on air signs and fire signs too. If you look at the charts of fighter pilots and aces this is much less pronounced. The charts show much more variety.

I therefore think the key factor is finding a well placed Mars (with strong Jupiter connections) rather than finding an air sign link. If I am wrong its probably related to this basic assumption. Not least I have taken the risk of selecting a chart without any air!

My Methodology

My basic approach utilises the tropical zodiac with a Hellenistic approach. I use whole sign houses and give a lot of focus to the lots of Fortune and Spirit. I have been influenced by Indian astrology in my approach to retrograde planets.

As noted above I have been examining all the charts looking for a well placed Mars (with strong Jupiter connections) rather than finding a strong air sign link.

Apart from the MC and 10th WSH Lord I explore other areas that can reveal career. In particular the lot of Fortune and Spirit. In my experience these lots can be just as helpful as the MC ruler or 10th WSH Lord in determining career.

In addition to delineating the lots in the radix charts I also apply Valens methodology of using the Lot of Fortune as a derived ASC. This was the basic methodology I applied to all these charts to assess them in this exercise.

I look at the dignities of domicile, exaltation, triplicity, and bound. I also use and antiscion points and the monomoiria which are the planetary rulers of individual zodiac degrees in ancient astrology. I don?t find face/decan useful in this kind of exercise. I use Dorothean triplicity rulers and Egyptian bounds. I normally like using fixed stars but as I don?t know specific birth times I omitted that here.

Why did I choose chart 1?

Overall, I favour Chart 1. Mars here is in the 9th WSH. Unlike most other Mystery charts Mars here is dignified by being in its own bound (Egyptian). Mars is on the monomoiria of Jupiter.

Mars is exaltation ruler of the ASC and the domicile ruler of the MC. The Lot of Fortune is in Scorpio and disposited by Mars. The Lot of Fortune is on the monomoiria of Jupiter. Like all the charts in the mystery chart exercise Mars is occidental here. I would have preferred an in sect Mars. Only chart 2 & 4 has this . However, only chart 1 and 5 have a Mars that is dignified ( in their bounds) and not peregrine. Note: I don?t use face/decans as a dignity.

We have the sect light ruler (The Sun) in the 9th house. Venus is the WSH 10th lord and disposits the Sect light from the 9th too. Venus is out of sect, under the beams and Rx. However, it is in its own bound. In ancient astrology a planet is protected from the negative effects of proximity to the Sun by being in its own bound (chariot). Venus is sextile the MC here. Venus being Rx indicates something unusual or remarkable about this persons career.

I suspect this is not just an average flyer with a bit of military service. With Venus under the beams one might expect some secrecy connected to aspects of this person?s work at times. Not so unusual for those involved in the military.

All the 9th house focus seems appropriate for someone involved in long term travel through profession. Many flyers do their military service overseas. This and the Venus Rx might also fit someone pushing the boundaries such as a fighter pilot selected as a test pilot or for astronaut training.

There is a strong Mars-Jupiter link in this chart with Mars in a close separating sextile to Jupiter. Mars also sextiles the Lot of Fortune. Both the MC and Lot of fortune are in the fortunate 11th WSH. The Lot of Spirit is in Pisces in the 3rd WSH. Again reinforcing the travel and movement association one might expect. This reinforces the significance of the Mars-Jupiter link with Mars ruling the MC and Lot of Fortune and Jupiter dispositor of the Lot of Spirit. Jupiter is conjunct the Lot of Fortune.

Saturn is in the 1st WSH in its domicile of Capricorn. It is also in sect and above the horizon. However, it is retrograde. I associate the Saturn Rx as another indicator of something unconventional and prominent about this persons life. This indicates he might have a scientific or engineering background. Perhaps he went back to College and studied aeronautics or some other technical subject. However, with Saturn involved I suspect this came in a later part of his career.

The Moon in the 7th is in its domicile in Cancer in opposition to the ASC. I have noticed a lot of fighter pilots have a lunar connection to the ASC. A disproportionate number have the Moon in the first or near the ASC. I am assuming this along with Mars assists the physical coordination of the body required for fighter pilots. The Moon here trines the MC here too. Paul of Alexandria states that Moon in the 7th is a sign that a person will end up living in another country from his/her birth.

Although this is a day chart many hellenistic astrologers would consider the Moon the natal predominator here since the Sun is cadent by WSH in the 9th. The lights rule their own signs but Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of Cancer. This reinforces the role of Jupiter with its conjunction to the Lot of Fortune and ruling the 3rd house.

Turning the chart with the Lot of Fortune I got the following. Jupiter (in sect) and MC in the 1st place. Mars, Sun (sect light) and Venus (WSH Lord 10) in the 11th WSH. This is the ?place of acquisition? and indicates a particular talent or ability than can benefit the native. Of all the charts in this exercise this one seems to be the most effective with Jupiter in the 1st and Mars and Sect light in the place of acquisition. Mars seems to have a very prominent role in this persons career. The 11th place indicates support from others in forwarding career aims.

Additionally, I note the North Node is angular in the 10th. The only angular NN in our charts. Venus the WSH Lord 10 disposits it from the 9th house. This just seems to reinforce the themes picked up earlier. So career success is likely to be associated with foreign travel and connections with foreigners. This person has a natural desire to explore and is likely to do something that makes him prominent so he stands out from the crowd.

Although it was a difficult choice I therefore took the heretical step of choosing a chart with no air and only 1 planet in fire! I think this is an example of someone in a statistical minority among military flyers but the strong Mars and Jupiter along with the lot placements seem to have overridden all this here.


Why I excluded the other Charts: 2, 3, 4, 5

Chart 2

This chart does have an in sect Mars. Like Chart 1 the MC is in Scorpio and therefore Mars ruled. However, this Mars is peregrine here. The Conj with Jupiter looks powerful but Jupiter is less effective here as it is the benefic out of sect and also peregrine. Saturn rules both the Lot of Fortune and Spirit with fits less well for a military career. Turning the chart Mars angular in the 7th. However, we have both lights , their dispositor and the ASC ruler in the less active 9th place. Theoretically all that air should fit a flyer. However, I don?t this think chart fits as well for a successful military career.

Chart 3

Using WSH this is a weak contender. Scorpio rises but Mars falls in the 12th WSH. Mars in its sign of detriment in Libra. Mars is not impressive here: Mars is peregrine, out of sect and occidental of the Sun. Its in aversion to the ASC. Mars is also in aversion to Jupiter. Sun is the sect light and dispositor of MC and Lot of Fortune placed in the 8th WSH. Sun?s dispositor (Mercury) in the 8th WSH. Mars does trine the Sun. Lot of Spirit in Saturn. Turning the Chart with Lot of Fortune in the 1st: Mars is only in the 2nd place. Jupiter is angular in the 4th. However, I am fairly convinced this cannot be our man (or woman!).

Chart 4

On the positive side Mars is in sect here. The lot of Fortune is in Scorpio. However,Mars is occidental, peregrine and in its sign of fall in Cancer. Mars literally opposes the ASC here. While this could fit battles with open enemies I think the lack of any dignity and indeed fall of Mars cannot be good. Both the MC and WSH Lord 10 are Venus. Venus is in Taurus in the 5th. Again a lunar connection with Moon in Cancer as the sect light here . This chart does not fit our Mystery man for me. With derived houses from the Lot of Fortune Moon and Mars in the 9th place and Jupiter in the 4th. I don?t think this is effective enough to counter the negatives in the radix chart.

Chart 5

Initially I thought Chart 5 was a serious contender. Mars is in its bound here. The Mars Jupiter Conj may be more effective here with Jupiter in sect. Its sits high in the chart in the 10th WSH. Jupiter is peregrine in this chart. However, that is true for chart 1 too.
Jupiter does disposit the Lot of Fortune. However, the lots are less promising than Chart 1 for me here. The Lot of Fortune is in Pisces in the 5th WSH. However, Jupiter is in aversion to its Lot. The Lot of Spirit is in Cancer. I have seen a couple of fighter pilot charts with Moon in Scorpio in the 1st. However, these were night charts so the Moon is arguably less effective for the native here.

Turning the chart with the Lot of Fortune the Moon falls in the 9th place. Jupiter and Mars fall in the 6th place from the Lot. The Sect light (Sun), Saturn, Venus, Mercury and North Node all fall in the angular 4th.
Using my methodology this makes this chart less probable with neither Jupiter or Mars strong here by placement.

What clinches it for me is that Mars is in aversion to the MC, Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit in the radix chart. If its this chart I need to revisit my whole approach to delineating charts. I hope not!

Concluding Comments

I am not going to follow the example of some others and try and have a second choice here. You wouldn?t get that opportunity with a real client! So if I am right I will take the kudos off pulling this off and if I am wrong I will simply go back to the drawing board with many others here. As I said at the beginning I think if we are honest this is a shot in the dark for all of us.

Thanks to James for an intriguing Mystery Chart exercise.

Mark

Mark, that's a wonderful analysis! One tiny quibble - Jupiter's not peregrine in Chart 5, at least not by most early authorities.

Any planet holding triplicity in a natal chart regardless of sect - still holds triplicity. I've got some way too lengthy quotes from Valens, Dorotheus and Masha'allah here, but the out-of-sect and participating rulers still count as having essential dignity in natal work. Horary, no, natal, yes. The concept changes around the time of Lilly, from what I can tell.

So far as I know with people in the here and now, Steven Birchfield and Lee Lehman also agree with this, so I think I'm not in horrible company!

And to bring it back around, thank you James for setting us this task!

Thanks Olivia,

Thats very interesting and news to me. I always assumed it was simply the Sun as day triplicity ruler of fire and Jupiter as night ruler. So on that basis I assumed Jupiter was peregrine.

However, I dont fancy my chances on the wrong side of an argument with you , Steven Birchfield and Lee Lehman! I am sure you know your sources.

Still, I haven't encountered the idea before so I would appreciate your comments by PM. I just dont want to distract the thread too much on this.

I think triplicity is a rather watered down dignity to begin with since we are applying it across 3 signs at once. If we allow this wider definition by excluding sect it seems to dilute it so that it becomes a very diffuse dignity indeed!

I am sticking to my guns (or should that be Top Gun?) anyway as my main problem with Chart 5 is that both both Jupiter and Mars are in aversion to the MC sign by WSH. In addition Jupiter disposits the Lot of Fortune but it is in aversion to it by WSH. Mars is also in aversion to the Lot of Fortune. Plus Mars and Jupiter are in aversion to the Lot of Spirit in Cancer. None of that fits for me if we are discussing a military figure.

Ok its past 3.30am UK time so time for bed!

Mark

I am inclined to switch to 5 but for another reason. It is the only chart with Cholera.
Yet it also strongly Phlegmatic. Chart 2 is strongly sanguine without Phlegm,all others are strong in it.
I wonder if a sanguine could stand life in the army?
My problem with 5 is that this person is probably agressive on the surface but cannot cope because of phlegm.He might find the military too much

Damon wrote:

I am inclined to switch to 5 but for another reason.

You previously told us you chose chart 2 with 3 as your second choice. So is 5 your new 1st choice making chart 2 now your 2nd. Or is chart 5 a reserve 2nd choice along with chart 3?

Mark

Mark wrote:Damon wrote:

I am inclined to switch to 5 but for another reason.

You previously told us you chose chart 2 with 3 as your second choice. So is 5 your new 1st choice making chart 2 now your 2nd. Or is chart 5 a reserve 2nd choice along with chart 3?

Mark

No, I am just voicing my thoughts as I recently learnt about temperament and wanted to remind members not to ignore that factor.
I still stick to 2,cause 5 may have too much phlegm even with relatively strong cholera.
My doubt as I said, is whether sanguines make good military men

first off - thanks so much for participating in what is a daunting task here! it is no easy feat to think of doing this with 3 charts let alone 5. i suspect some of the professional astrologers might not want there reputation tarnished by taking a chance doing this exercise which is fair enough. on the other hand suggesting a 2nd guess is really not getting down to the business of sharing your rationale for the first choice.. the most rewarding part of this experience is being able to read the astro 'logic' for why one chooses a particular chart.. as i said previously, getting it right is much less valuable then sharing your reasoning for a particular chart to which we can all learn from.. for the record, the host here deb houlding was gracious enough to participate in these exercises the last time they were done. she got some right and some wrong.. to me, this reflects in a hugely favourable way towards her for stepping out on a limb and having the pizazz to venture a response..

on another note, a well known astrologer does have a modern method for trying to define profession via the astrochart.. if traditional astrology has a method for doing this, it would be wonderful to have this clarified for us here.. i think some of the posters have helped clarify some of this for us to an extent...

i am going to give the chart for the person in question - military/flying profession, and i am also going to give a clue on one of the remaining 4 charts in terms of their profession.. i will be releasing the info much quicker this time.. i am not going to wait to try to engage as many.. if you want to offer your astro'logic' for the 1 of the remaining 4 charts with the clue i give, great! i will give the answer to this one in 2-3 days max.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hadfield
chart 1 is the chart of chris hadfield which you can read about in the wikipedia link. his birth data is - aug 29 1959 sarnia, canada 448pm.

of the remaining 4 charts, one of them is a physicist, and director for sub-atomic research at a major center for this type of activity.

no 2nd guesses as that is not the purpose of these exercises as i see it... thank you again for participating!

Another one for Mark.
But I expected some air on his chart,being a pilot.

damon, the beauty of this exercise is it generally discourages a simple approach to astrology.. the idea that a pilot must have a focus in air would be one example..instead one is forced to think and approach astrology in a more complicated or highly organized manner which takes into account a number of symbols built into the chart, as opposed to a quick read of sun signs or element emphasis for example.. it is the same deal with temperament which you are quickly finding out on the other thread as well!!! i suppose this means there are no real short cuts to understanding a chart and many hours of study combined with experience is needed instead..

I once read a book "knowing how to loose" and no matter how much I want to say that we don't see this as a "competition" it is true that there are little people around who would feel comfortable to miss the point
At least I sense that.

I don't like excuses but I try to find the error in my approaching, and I think that I become quickly impressed by Olivia's post which sounded to me convenient and I have let my self to have presumption of the type: "Aha, that's the one!", and I started examining the charts with pre-convinience that all the rest must not be the pilot we seek.
[Just a note of caution, I do not blame Olivia for my wrong answer. Her post was wonderful and I still think that she connected the astrological factors very fine].

I think that many times the errors in our judgments, in our predictions, or in this kind of "astrological guessing" is in the wrong mindset of approaching the delineation. Having quick conveniences even before using the principles of Astrology over certain amount of time upon the particular chart.

The lesson I've got from this is that in approaching delineation, one must exclude all external thoughts from his head, of the type of "authority's opinions" and to just Look at the chart with the skills and knowledge one already has.

I think this is the wisdom we the younger astrologers lack.
Sometimes I want to have a Time Machine and ask Regiomontanus, how was he able to predict great deal of Maximilian's life when he (Regio) was only 23 years old?
I want to ask Abu Ma'shar, was he as good or as bad at my age in astrology? He would answer me: "Kid, I didn't knew a bit about Astrology prior my 40's" lol

Kidding aside, I learned a lot from Mark's post. Even though most of us guessed some other charts then 1st, he didn't relied on our answers, and just used his astrological wisdom to delineate as his astrological skills and knowledge are saying him to judge.

Mark, another great astrological lesson from you, thanks