James: look at my post of 24 January, rule no. 1- all the return charts must be calculated to the place of resident.
Chirac: could you explain why you think his birth time is not correct? I have almost 50 events for him and for me it is beyond any doubt that the time is correct. Sun on MC, Moon in 10th, Neptune and Mars in 7th square MC and Sun, ruler of 7th- his infidelity and the tragedy of his daughter Laurence
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 46029.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 85406.html
His epoch, cast for 5 March 1932 2.31.35 UT Asc 23Sag51’, Moon 19Aqu16’ is more sharp: Venus, ruler of 4th, exactly on IC, square Pluto in 7th, Moon in exact opposition to helio Jupiter, both in harmonious aspects to MC

isaac,

i saw your rule 1, but in the case of queen elizabeths chart where we discussed the lunar return - and for all others - we can't know for sure just where the person is... so on the surface of this - it seems insane to suggest only a lunar or solar return works for the place where the person is at the time... how can one know? the fact is, unless you are the person - you can't! but, thank you for answering my question on do you use this philosophy for solar returns as it appears you do, by emphasizing what you said at point 1..

regarding chirac - i just don't jive with his chart.. that is not to say it isn't accurate.. it is to say i don't resonate with it, so i am less interested in looking at it... purely subjective on my part.. so of the 50 events for him - how can you know where he was at the time of the solar or lunar return? serious question.. i will ask it again...

so of the 50 events for chriac - how can you know where he was at the time of the solar or lunar returns you are using???

James: For the lunar return one should know only the place of residence and not the exact location he was at the moment of the lunar return. The person can be even 500 kilometers from his house at the time of the return, but as long as he is back to his home within days- it doesn’t matter the location he was.
In Chirac case this was an easy case as he was born and lived all his life in Paris, except for a short period when he was in USA. One doesn’t need to know even the exact location of his home – enough to know that it was in Paris.
The problem is with adventurers who change the place of residence constantly or for some famous persons who have several houses and it indeed difficult to know where he was for a specific lunar return. In such cases one can’t cast a lunar return.
Lunar returns are not the main technique for rectification or for prediction. We have enough other systems that don’t require knowing the place of residence: primary, secondary, PSSR, transits, etc.

thanks for your additional comments isaac - james

An Overview of the Birth vs. Residence Return Controversy

There has always been disagreement between astrologers who believe that solar returns (and lunar returns and derivative charts such as the demi-lunar or ennead) must be calculated for the place of birth or the place of residence. India (K.S. Charak is Indian) has always insisted on the birth place location for return charts. I'm not sure where the residence preference originated, but western Fagan school siderealists have always insisted the residence location should be used to cast return charts. (However lately on Jim Eshelman's Solunars forum there has been some discussion about the value of birth place return charts. But I don't have that reference at the moment.)

The residence return proponents highlight planets near the angles as Isaac has done here. The birth location astrologers read the entire chart and pay attention to houses. To a small extent I've tested both birth and residence charts for events. I've found that the birth solar return (always using the sidereal year) makes use of house positions, but the residence chart does tend to highlight planets on angles.

I remember one case where the person was in a car accident. The solar return ennead (derivative time division of the solar return) birth location chart had Mars on the 6th house cusp, but the residence chart had Mars on the ascendant. How do we know what Mars on the ascendant means?

We wouldn't know it was an accident without referring to the birth place chart. The western Fagan sidereal school tends to interpret planets only in the psychological sense, so Mars on the ascendant wouldn't especially indicate an accident, but rather the person's feelings for the month. Probably for a complete picture of a month (or any time division of a return chart) it would be best to study both birth place and residence charts.

But then there is the increased complexity of using the tropical or sidereal year for the calculation of solar, lunar or any other return chart. We are a long way from being able to settle the controversy of the best way to calculate and read return charts for accurate readings. Those of us who have settled firmly on the sidereal year have noted that long range transits in return charts to natal planets are precise using the sidereal year, but miss in tropical year charts. This can be tested in any well timed birth chart for nations or cities or in the charts of elderly national leaders or others in he public eye.

Catching up on various older posts...

Re: (However lately on Jim Eshelman's Solunars forum there has been some discussion about the value of birth place return charts. But I don't have that reference at the moment.)

However, often Jim gives individual advice about where someone might go (briefly) in order to get a better Solar Return, which seems 180° opposite the birthplace return idea.

From my experience, including many tightly-timed births, the residence at the time of the return gives better, more obvious results. (this is not to say that birthplace returns aren't readable, only that in my experience, the residence-derived return was more obvious, relative to the event in question... and yes, it's all about the angles in that case...)

Thank you Isaac for sharing the work of Marr and your knowledge on Lunar returns.
Besides Lunar Returns what is your take on Tertiary Lunar Progression (24= 1 month of life) and Minor Lunar Progression ( 24h= 1 year of life)?

And do you consider the Lunar mansion when looking at Lunar returns? Whether it be the Moon or an Angular planet highlighted?

Any comment on Valens who says that from the NM the following planets rules the period:
Mercury until the 4th day (4 days)
Mercury until the 8th day (4 days)
Venus until the 12th day (4 days)
Sun until the 14th day (2 days)
Mars until the 21th day (7 days)
Jupiter until the 25th day (4 days)
Saturn until the 30th day (5 days)

Does this apply to the Lunar return as well?

Thank you!
Ouranos

Regarding tropical vs sidereal lunar returns and place of birth vs place of residence: for the past 20 years I’ve only used tropical and only place of residence (I’ve lived in different countries on different continents, mostly far away from my place of birth)— always with fairly satisfying results. After reading this thread, I did some experiments, and my conclusion is (to my own big surprise!) that it’s worth looking both at sidereal and tropical, and both at place of residence and place of birth.

Here two of my experiments, one with a past lunar return in my own life, and one with Wolfgang Pauli’s solar and lunar returns the year he won the Nobel Prize :

1. Last August I received a substantial sum of money. In my tropical LR, for my place of residence, Part of Fortune was on the cusp of my LR 2d house. It fell at a seemingly random degree in my tropical natal 7th house, unaspected, but exactly conjunct an asteroid that carried the first name of the person who gave me the money.
In the sidereal LR, place of residence, POF was also conjunct cusp of the 2d house. It fell exactly conjunct my tropical natal Jupiter & cusp of tropical 8th, and widely conjunct my sidereal natal Venus in the middle of my sidereal natal 8th. The sidereal LR gave more info about it being a gift, as it made the link with my 8th house — but the relevant asteroid name of the donor didn’t show up at a significant spot in the sidereal.
So both sidereal and tropical made sense, and gave additional information, and apparently one can even put the sidereal LR on top of the natal tropical.

The same LR for my place of birth: nothing going on in the tropical LR 2d house, but LR Venus is right at the cusp of the LR 8th house, trine Uranus, trine the asteroid that has my name, and trine asteroid Abundantia. On top of this, the LR POF is exactly conjunct the asteroid with the last name of the donor in my natal chart!
In the birth place sidereal LR, nothing special going on neither in the 2d house nor in the 8th (just LR Jupiter conjunct LR Asc, trine LR Moon, which anyway indicates a good month).

2. Wolfgang Pauli received the Nobel prize in 1945. I looked up his lunar and solar returns, both sidereal and tropical, for Vienna (where he was born), for Princeton (where he was living) and for Stockholm. I zoomed in mostly on tight conjunctions with angles, Sun and Moon and on Part of Fortune — both for the returns alone, and for the returns laid on top of the natal chart. I added asteroid Nobel.

Here my results:

For Princeton (where he was on the moment of the SR and LR)
Sidereal SR : SR asteroid Nobel conjunct SR Ascendant!
Sidereal LR: LR POF conjunct natal SUn
Tropical SR: SR Nobel conjunct SR IC
Tropical LR: LR Part of Fortune conjunct Natal MC!

For Vienna (place of birth)
Sidereal SR: SR POF conjunct natal Asc! SR Nobel at the cusp of 9th, exactly square SR Asc/Desc
Sidereal LR: LR Moon conjunct LR POF conjunct LR MC! LR Nobel conjunct LR Descendant, LR ASc widely conjunct natal POF
Tropical SR: SR MC conjunct natal SUn
Tropical LR: LR Desc conjunct natal Nobel

For Stockholm (where he picked up the prize, towards the end of his LR)
Sidereal SR: SR Jupiter conjunct natal Asc, SR MC conjunct natal NN, SR Nobel square SR POF
Sidereal LR: LR Saturn conjunct Mars conjunct LR Asc in Cancer — this really doesn’t fit! — as he wasn’t in Stockholm on the moment of the return, and the ceremony took place 2 days before his next LR, I also checked the next one: there he has POF conjunct Saturn, so that doesn’t make sense either
Tropical SR: SR MC conjunct natal SUn, SR POF conjunct Natal Pallas Athina
Tropical Nov LR: LR Asc conjunct natal POF — for the 12 Dec LR: LR POF conjunct LR MC (the ceremony was the 10th)

(Transits (S&T): Pallas Athina, Mercury, Venus conjunct natal North Node, Vesta conjunct natal Nobel, Nobel conjunct natal Pallas Athina)


Except for the Sidereal lunar return for Stockholm, which is totally off, there’s something to be found everywhere. His sidereal Solar Returns both for Princeton and Vienna impress me most. Of the Lunar Returns, it’s the tropical one for Princeton and the sidereal one for Vienna that impress me most.

The sidereal lunar for STockholm being off doesn’t surprise me at all — my past experience has shown me that for the lunar returns, what counts is where you are/live on the moment of the return. I am surprised though that his Stockholm tropical LR makes sense.

For solar returns, in my experience it’s where you find yourself, regardless of where you are on the moment of the return — eg, if you’re in NY for your solar return, the NY solar return is valid as long as you are in NY, but if you move to another country, then the solar return for that place becomes valid, even if you weren’t there on the moment of the return. Pauli’s Stockholm Solar Returns seems to confirm this. But his birthplace returns definitely make sense too.

WOuld love to hear your thoughts.

Anyway, I just saw that my sidereal 2023 SR looks good (SR POF conjunct SR Asc conjunct Spica, natal Jupiter conjunct SR Descendant) whereas my tropical SR doesn’t look good, so then would be the time to figure out which one is more accurate!