i still don't get the difference between log and almuten...

i still don't get the difference between log and almuten...

Hi sandstone,

Tom's earlier post pretty much covered your question.

I suppose we need to define LoG .. Lilly defines it, more or less, as the strongest planet in a chart by essential dignity that can act. That means it needs enough accidental dignity to put it in play. For example a planet in triplicity in the 10th might be preferable to a planet in domicile in the 12th. The idea is to pick a strong active planet.

I think Ibn Ezra uses the almutem as the LoG. Almutem is different in that a weak planet that has a great deal of dignity in the ASC degree could be chosen. That surely is indicative of something, but the LoG seems to be less about prediction than it is about potential. The best use of it is made when the native consciously tries to use it. I don't see the value in using a weak planet just because it has lots of dignity in the ASC. It's like hoping for the best results by putting your worst traits on display.

A common way of assessing planetary strength by essential dignity is using the 5 traditional dignities-domcilie ruler, exaltation ruler, triplicity ruler, term/bound ruler and Face/ decan ruler. Every degree of the zodiac has an Almuten or planet with the most dignity in that degree of the chart. A common medieval pointing system was to assign domcile ruler (5 points), exaltation (4 points), triplicity (3 points), bound/term (2 points), face/decan (1 point).

As an example take someone with an Ascendant at 11 Taurus in a night chart. The Almuten is of that degree is the Moon as it it is the exaltation, triplicity and face ruler. It has 8 points versus the domicile ruler Venus obtaining only 5 points.

Here is an explanation of the difference between essential and accidental dignity:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

Here is the commonly used dignity table derived from Ptolemy:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

So the Almuten is quite simply the planet which is strongest by essential dignity in a chart. In some medieval systems the ruler of the nativity is derived that way.

The argument vs a purely Almuten based system is that it ignores the many factors that can prevent a planet expressing its strong essential dignity. For example a planet which is buried in the 12th house, retrograde, combust, out of sect, slow in motion, conjunct Saturn etc.

The Lord of the Geniture on the other hand usually uses many other criteria to assess the strength of a planet such as house placement, direct or retrograde motion, planetary speed, conjunction to malefics/benefics, solar phase, combustion, conjunction to nodes and important fixed stars.

Various systems were used to assess the LOG by essential and accidental dignity in the medieval and renaissance period. One of the most popular is by the 17th century astrologer William Lilly.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

The objection to this kind of counting system is that we are comparing apples to pears a lot of the time. I personally shy away from such a reductionist approach but its maybe a matter of temperament. I supose it depends how much Virgo you have in your chart. I tend to also factor in sect which Lilly's system omits.

Mark

Sandstone -

I would say your Venus would be LoG if it weren't for Algol. Venus is in house dignity, angular on the DSC, in sect, occidental, direct, although a tad slow. Average speed of Venus is 1?12' and yours is 1?03. Your Sun is a good candidate, but it's out of sect. It's swift, in the 5th and in exaltation, but I'd vote for Mars. It's swift, oriental, in sect (although halb), in exaltation, face and term, and in the 2nd (tied with Sun there anyway). So Mars is my vote. I didn't use a computer program or anything - just in my head - so I could be wrong.

thanks mark.. on the basis of what i read, i am going to go with mars as my log then.. mars also happens to be my almuten..

edit - hey thanks for your take on my chart tanit! i go with a type of whole sign which might make it all different too.. i think the lilly thing was done with hard edges on the houses...

tanit - depends on house systems, it seems to me.. i have mars in the 3rd by the system i use.. sun in 6th.. i know it is crazy, but i am trying it on for size at present..

I must say Sandstone has an embarrassment of available choices here.

What about charts with no dignified planets or even debilitated planets but strong by accidental dignity. Can they be LOG? Some traditional authorities said yes.

Here are an interesting couple of articles discussing the practical application of the method of the German astrologer Johannes Sch?ner (1477- 1547)

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/20 ... -geniture/

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/20 ... d-the-sea/

Plus here is an article from our very own Tom looking at the chart of General Patton which presents similar difficulties in terms of lack of planets with essential dignity:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/patton.html

Mark

I also found this article by Robert Hand which compares the dignity scoring systems of several medieval astrologers. Nice to see where they agree and differ with the commonly used system of Lilly.

http://www.arhatmedia.com/alldign.htm

Mark

Tanit wrote:

LOG is more likely to describe someone's personality and appearance/health/spirit, etc., right?

Not really. The "personality*" appearance and health etc are shown by the Ascendant, it's ruler and aspects to it. The Log shows our strengths. Although Tanit raises a good point: the discussion on this thread has centered on how to find the Lord of the Geniture, not so much what to do with it once we've done that. Frawley mad an observation once that the Asc is the life we are given and the Lord of the Geniture is the life we want. In other words it is the best of us and therefore is to be consciously used not submitted to. For most of us if it "kicks in" at all, it does so later in the life after we, more or less, have our act together. But why wait? At least that's Frawley's point.

I know I refer to George Patton's chart a lot, but it is so damn useful that one more time won't hurt. The Lord of the geniture for "Old Blood and Guts" is (ready?) Venus. Venus is in the 7th house of war (Placidus cusps) in the exaltation of Mars, Capricorn. She is in her own triplicity and that makes her the strongest planet in his chart. The Moon is also in Capricorn, and is the night ruler of earth (his is a night chart), but is in detriment and the 8th house . Now his MC is 0 Pisces. Venus moved by progression to Pisces the sign of her exaltation at about the time of his greatest military successes, and it was later in his life as shortly after the war in Europe ended, Patton was dead at age 60. You didn't think one of the best field generals in WWII got in touch with his inner Venus, did you?

The best use of the LoG is learning what we're good at and applying that to our lives. It is most decidedly a non-fatalistic concept. Patton's "Blood and Guts" reputation, it was a name he hated and no one used it to his face, is more likely to be blamed on an angular Mars in mutual reception with his Mercury ASC ruler. Mars is the significator of the manners in his chart.

Having two or more legitimate candidates for LoG is a problem that, to my knowledge is not addressed in the literature. Since we're choosing the LoG to consciously work with, then all we have to do is pick one. If there is an embarrassment of riches and we use the LoG for temperament, it is possible it could shift the balance, but even so it is one item of several. Or use Dorian Greenbaum's method. She doesn't use the LoG to determine temperament.

Hi Tom,

I know I refer to George Patton's chart a lot, but it is so damn useful that one more time won't hurt. The Lord of the geniture for "Old Blood and Guts" is (ready?) Venus.

Our posts were quite close so you might have missed I just gave the link to your article on Patton.

Its off the topic of LOG but I find it interesting Patton has the lot of Fortune in Aries disposited by an angular Mars while his lot of Spirit is in Leo disposited by his Sun in Scorpio.

Mark

Hi Tom,

Sorry. What kind of Scotsman am I? Happy New Year to you too!

Mark

mark, i now have an embarrassing amount of links to read too, lol... thanks for that though.. i really appreciate you kindness.

tom -i like greenbaums temperament book.. using that method i get at least 3 options to chose from as well, lol..

okay - i read those links and got some interesting insight into the many ways one can arrive at the log..

i liked the questions and interaction in the messages on the altair astrology site and enjoyed the articles.. i especially liked the idea that a planet in it's fall isn't as bad as in detriment and peregrine.. that was interesting to read, and that it can be considered for the log.

i enjoyed the article by tom on patton and was happy to see tom using pluto in the primary directions, after having read a thread on pluto here a few weeks ago.. mind you the article was from 2004 which is a long time ago i suppose..

i found the link to robert hands site stimulating too for the very reason no one agrees and that there is no one definitive system for arriving at the log. i liked his questions at the beginning of the link "Is the strength that Saturn gets by being conjunct the Ascendant the same kind of strength that it gets by being in Capricorn, Aquarius, or Libra? I think that most would agree that these are not the same kind of strengths, but I also think that few of us could pin down exactly what the differences are."

i think these are really good questions and there are sometimes no easy answers.. thanks for providing those links..

using the new or full moon before birth, and or the solar eclipse before birth is also an interesting addition to efforts to define the log.. using this i find myself tossing back and forth between venus and mars.. i still think mars, but venus came up strongly using these tools for arriving at the log..

thanks for the astro exercise here..