Tradition" in magic can have a very different meaning of what (I believe) you are aiming for.

My only aim was really to tease you but I take your point. Clearly there are many traditions of magic across time and space.

Mark

Mark wrote: However, everything about fixed stars interests me so I would really like to learn more on fixed star talismans. Vivian Robson does talk about the 16 Behenian fixed stars and shows there symbols. I assume I can find out more in Agrippa? Does Christopher Warnock include fixed stars in his astrological magic course?

Yes to all of the above, plus The Picatrix has a lot. Chris Warnock's course now includes a copy of The Picatrix, so it's pretty crucial.

Hi waybread,

Sorry for the delayed reply.

I'm all for good ol' fashioned scepticism. People, however, often make the mistake looking at a subject through their own preconceptions, and finding it wanting, think that they have shown that subject false. Astrology is often victim to this kind of false scepticial inquiry.

waybread wrote:can you tell me what you mean by "magic"?

I'm sorely tempted to trot out that old Crowley quote, but I will try to restrain myself.

Magic, certainly as it is meant in this context of "remedial measures", is the attempt to alter one's circumstances through and by the agency of spiritual beings. One establishes such communication by means of prayer, ritual, various 'sympathies', and/or direct communication through spiritual means, like the often mentioned 'astral plane'. This is clearly not a "psychological" method, like trying to boost self-confidence in the manners previous described, like a change in routine or having a "lucky" object.

Thanks, GR.

Do you mean this quote? "Magic/k is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will."

But surely we cause many changes that conform with our wills without using talismans, involking spirits, and the like.

To be sceptical is to remain in a state of doubt or suspended judgement as to whether something is true or not. To be critical is to have made up one's mind about it. Some scepticism is posited as criticism, to see whether proponents of an idea are able to counter the criticism.

Hi waybread,

waybread wrote:Do you mean this quote? "Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will."

Yes it is. I left it out because it is simply too broad for our particular discussion.

waybread wrote: But surely we cause many changes that conform with our wills without using talismans, involking spirits, and the like.

Surely, but why should we not use these other means as well?

Considering that this thread is about change caused by talismans, spirits, etc, and not by other means that may be as good, or better, as meditation, Huma, etc, I ask that members stick to the topic as originally proposed, and if they feel the need, they can create new threads in the appropriate forum.

I do agree, there's something missing about the Arabic astrological magic, but I'm not sure what, other than getting ahold of one's personal genius first?

Answering kind of late....

I think there are many factors to consider.

Books like Picatrix were never meant to be a "how to do" manual, they were what we would call "reference books". It was probably assumed that a student would have a master, as in any system of magic, astrology, etc, in the world.

Second, I don?t think that arabic astrological magic, as described in those books, is representative of arabic magic. I believe the most important book of arabic magic is the Red Sulfur, which is heavily based on prayer, purification, talismans of the letter of the arabic alphabet, and invocation of the Djinns. Of course, there are plenty of planetary symbolism, but of a different kind than the Picatrix.

And, of course, something may "miss" in the written form of a system, doesn?t mean that the same thing is missed in the live form. I have heard pretty scary things that magicians from the middle eastern can do. Tibetan magic also has some pretty dark stuff.

Windows 7[/url]I'll certainly be happy to post it. I'm certain that I saved copies of the ritual and everything relevant to it, including responses from the participants, but I think they got stuck in a box somewhere during a house move - I haven't come across them again yet.[]Microsoft Office Enterprise 2007[/url]

Note to Moderator: I note all your short posts on Skyscript promote Windows 2007 software. Not the most subtle advertizing job I have seen.

Mark

I removed the links as they seemed suspicious

I've removed other posts with advertising links embedded within them, and have ended this poster's membership.

There's another one:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/search.ph ... hor=vivian