Steven wrote:
Hope to post this very shortly and it is very long and I look at several charts and I discuss the indicators according to the ancients.

Hello Steven,

Great to see you on the forum again. With a pic as well! Maybe its time I did the same.

I would love to see your analysis of the situation looking at this from a traditional perspective.

Mark

Hi Olivia and others , re the oncoming Mars - Saturn square. I'm wondering on this. Mars is disposed by an exalted Saturn, does this not mean that Saturn has the upper hand. Ie this aspect speaks of a "test of strength" possibly between the authorities and the military? I guess this could be very relevant to the north of Korea , or even to the south since there is an ongoing realignment of the military and government on that side of the border too. However the idea of a Mars - Saturn square connected to the outbreak of hostilities seems unlikely. If there is a "test of strength" then the authorities or the current establishment is likely to win, and not the military??

Normally with the outbreak of war I would have expected other aspects to Mars surely?? Ie WW1 Mars was sextile to the Sun and Pluto, WWII Mars was trine to Neptune and Uranus.

In fact WWII ended with a square between Mars and Saturn, which perhaps seems more fitting in connection with this aspect??

Finally the original Korean war broke out suddenly on 25th June 1950 under a square between Mars, and conj Sun / Uranus.

just a thought, regards
mike c

... the idea of a Mars - Saturn square connected to the outbreak of hostilities seems unlikely...

Hi Mike,

That was a factor but not the most important one for me. As I stated the lunar eclipse along the Sagittarius-Gemini axis was what first hit me. This goes back to the foundation ingress charts for both Koreas.

Normally with the outbreak of war I would have expected other aspects to Mars surely?? Ie WW1 Mars was sextile to the Sun and Pluto, WWII Mars was trine to Neptune and Uranus.

Interesting. The astrology of wars would be an intriguing study. Still I am not convinced that the event chart for the outbreak of war is the key consideration. Rather I would look at how war was indicated in previous ingress, and eclipse charts. As I see it event charts based on the outbreak of a war only have significance in that context.

Nevertheless as we are discussing the possibility of hostilities between the two Koreas here is the event chart for the outbreak of the Korean War. It began when North Korean military forces crossed the South Korean frontier along the 38th parallel at 4.00am on 25th of June 1950.

http://ukinrok.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/w ... korean-war
Note the Gemini-Sagittarius axis in the chart along the ASC/DESC reflecting the foundational ingress charts. The Capricorn ingress and Lunar eclipse south Node are on the same degree as the Sun in the event chart for the Korean war.

The more interesting question for me though is could one have anticipated hostilities between the two Koreas in 1950? Event charts aren't much use. However, the Lunar eclipse chart located for South Korea in 1950 gave clear hints of impending conflict. See the MC/IC angles reflecting the foundational ingress chart ASC/DESC! Very close to where the Lunar eclipse occurs on December 21st this year. Equally, in the 1950 lunar eclipse Mars Rx is angular on the 7th house cusp opposing the ASC by degree. The ASC and MC ruler Jupiter is placed in the 12th house indicating the impending unfortunate fate of the South Korean nation. Venus the exaltated ruler of the 1st house , domicile ruler of the 2nd by sign division (and the 8th house whole sign) is also located in the 12th house of hidden enemies. This reflects well the early overwhelming of South Korea in the war by the superior North Korean forces. The MC is on the malefic nebula Acumen in the constellation of Scorpio of the nature of Mars and the Moon. The IC is on the reddish fixed star Betelgeuse of the nature of Mars and Mercury.

Event charts aren't much use

Hi Mark I don't get this statement, surely all charts are in effect "event charts" either past present or future. What else is left??

Interesting you mentioned the "strength" of North Korea in past attacks, in your post. That was something I had in mind when I was posting about Mars- Saturn. I could imagine that with Saturn's acendancy in that tustle, that if North Korea launched a surprise attack soon, it would rapidly get repulsed. I feel that the current situation has as much to do with internal politics as anythng. Its as though the south actually wants the north to attack because they could reasonably make the calculation that they would repulse the North Koreans and force a collapse of the regime. I think the North knows they are only in a position of strength vs a vs making threats, not launching anything wider, All this also plays into the internal wrangle between key regime members and the army. I think this is all reflected in the configuration of Mars/Pluto/Saturn etc as cited in people's posts.
Apologies for these "thinking on the hoof" sort of posts.
mike c

HI again, since Korea is a CHinese zodiac zone country in terms of popular culture, it occurs to me that we are in the closing stages of the Tiger year, a fierce animal who also ruled 1950 and the original Korean War, along with the start of WWI , and also 1938, which I guess could be argued was the start of the hostilities of WWII. SO I suppose the key is for further hostilities to be avoided until the year of the Hare arrives, a more passive creature.
mike c

Hi Mark I don't get this statement, surely all charts are in effect "event charts" either past present or future. What else is left??

I was expressing a viewpoint common in traditional astrology. Its maybe not one you are familiar with. Essentially, in a more traditional approach not all charts serve the same purpose. One can see this as a kind of hierarchy. For example, cycles like the Jupiter-Saturn aspectual relationship give us a long term view over many years. Then we have charts like a Solar eclipse and Lunar eclipse. The Solar eclipse is meant to last longer in effect than a Lunar eclipse. We also look at the Ingress charts for the quaters of the year. The root chart is not the 'national chart' which is a very modern development but usually the ingress chart tied to the founding of a nation or city. So for instance, the chart for the United States of America is not July 4, 1776, since there was not even a complete government or true nation to speak of at that time. The foundational ingress chart for the USA chart is the Aries ingress for 1789, the year of Washington?s inaugural. One advantage of this kind of approach is that it resolves the usually interminable arguments about which 'national chart' is the correct one for a country. From these basic charts plus predictive techniques such as profections and firdaria we can better establish what planetary configurations by transit are more likely to be operative.

So rather than select a chart for just the moment of the outbreak of war the traditional astrologer would consider a range of other charts leading up to this moment. This is what I meant when I stated that an isolated chart such as the planetary configurations at the outbreak of a war is not much use on its own. It doesn't allow accurate prediction and leads to constant 'hindsight' astrology'

I am certainly, no authority on all this but it is the kind of approach that increasingly interests me. Hopefully, more informed people on the forum can explain this better than I have.

Mark

Hi Mark, actually I am totally aware of ingress usage and eclipses etc. Its just a personal style thing on my part. Concentrating on event charts and planetary cycles including outer cycles works for me , always interested in other people's approaches. I sort of have personal interests that fall between Traditional and Modern camps .
regards
mike c[/quote]

Hi Mark, actually I am totally aware of ingress usage and eclipses etc. Its just a personal style thing on my part. Concentrating on event charts and planetary cycles including outer cycles works for me , always interested in other people's approaches. I sort of have personal interests that fall between Traditional and Modern camps .
regards mike c

Hello Mike,

Fair enough. I hope my reply didn't seem patronising. I am a pragmatist and will work with any approach that demonstrates reasonable success. I do look at outer planets too. I just think there is a tendency to overemphasize them in modern astrology. To date I think modern astrology has been quite unsuccessfuil overall at predicting future events. There are exceptions though. The British astrologer Dennis Elwell seems to have a remarkable gift for prediction. Generally, though we all spend too much time analysing charts or events retrospectively.

To be balanced I should point out that the switch away from the traditional approach after WWII in mundane astrology was motivated by a disatisfaction with traditional techniques which were not thought to have accurately picked up WWII. I personally think the problem was more related to the dilution of understanding of traditional mundane astrology amongst mid-20th century astrologers. However, there is already a long thread on that specific issue. I am no medieval fundamentalist but I do think we would all benefit from taking the time to gain a better understanding of the traditional techniques that have been lost in mundane astrology.

Of course you might be quite right about Korea. Its certainly what a lot of pundits suggest. If nothing happens between now and next spring I am obviously going to have to go back to the drawing board. Still better to predict and fail than never predict at all!

Mark

Still better to predict and fail than never predict at all!

Indeed! In fact if you look over my posts , I try to stick to a clear plan. Make specific statements or predictions, keep it simple and start ,and end with the astrology, not the politics.
cheers
mike c

MikeCoop wrote:

Still better to predict and fail than never predict at all!

Indeed! In fact if you look over my posts , I try to stick to a clear plan. Make specific statements or predictions, keep it simple and start ,and end with the astrology, not the politics.
cheers
mike c

Hear Hear! An astrologer who doesn't make predictions is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. We should all raise a glass to members like Andrew, Goca and Mike who are bold enough to step up to the plate..and often get it right!

Maybe Tom and Deb could have go? I mean if astrology is not about prediction then what is about - navel gazing?

Hi an additional thought re Chinese astrology. The Chinese Animal Year Cycle lasts for 60 Years, each a different animal ie 12 animals multiplied by the 5 different "agents" or elements in our terms. The Chinese called 2010 "Keng Yin" or "Tiger Descending From the Mountain". The Previous "Keng Yin" would obviously have been, 1950. The Year of the Korean War!!

Its interesting how much about China all this is!
1950 was when the People's Republic was recognised as legitimate by world governments, and the Republican's set up Taiwan, as well as sending troops to Korea to support the move to capture the south. In the here and now this year's politics have seem a more assertive China making its presence felt in many different spheres. The Tiger came down from the mountain to make its presence felt!!

mike c

The Dec 21, 2010 lunar eclipse is certainly a factor to consider because it is intensely stimulating No. Korea's natal Uranus (0 Cancer), the planet of unpredictability. Other natal degrees at play?. NK leader Kim Jong Il?s natal Mars at 28 ?41 Sag (DOB Feb 16, 1941), North Korea?s progressed Jupiter (29 ?01 Sag) and South Korea?s natal Uranus 29 ?26 Gemini (Aug. 15, 1948). Also, Pres. Obama?s progressed Sun (0 Libra), natal Venus (1 Cancer) and the US Sibly MC (1 Libra) are close to those degrees.

South Korea and the US are planning additional military exercises towards the end of December which includes live artillery fire surrounding the five islands under dispute ? see related article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=22252

A quick glance at the aspects for the end of December?. Mercury goes stationary direct on Dec 30th (19 Sag), possibly re-activating the grievances that began on November 23rd with the North Korean bombardment of Yeonpyeong island (the Nov 23rd Mars- Moon opposition triggered the 19 Sag natal Jupiter of both North and South Korea). The 12/30 Mercury station also occurs right at the time of the Dec 29th Mars-Saturn square (16 Libra - Capr.). China has its natal nodes at 16 Aries ? Libra. Adding to that; progressed Neptune at 16 Libra is presently conjoining its natal south node. One might expect that if hostilities were to erupt on the Korean peninsula, China may be reluctantly drawn into the conflict (Neptune sometimes blurs the lines of communication - NK is China's ally).

I don't see the Dec 29th Mars - Saturn square having any hard angles to the South and North Korea natal planets. However, tr. Mars does trine NK's natal Sun (16 Virgo) and is in quincunx to its progressed Pluto (16 Leo). Could that indicate military aggression?