Skyscript Astrology Forum

Atlantean wrote:

I do realize that the small number (18 currently) is such a small sample that it would be considered anecdotal, however; anecdotal as it may be, Krishnamurti is working relatively reliably and FB appears to be working at chance or worse and that is concerning.

For this research we also need the precise details, calculated charts, planetary distance from angles and so forth. Right now we have only your planet lists, no orbs or visuals to aid our understanding. This is where research becomes difficult because it's the details that are time consuming, calculating precise distance orbs, etc. Astrologers in general don't have the time or patience the Gauquelins had with their massive collection of details on hand written file cards, and then putting it all together. This took many years of difficult and dedicated work. So today's astrological research is mainly anecdotal.

As far as I know, the numbers of astrologers who swear by the FB (SVP) ayanamsa are relatively few, and mostly in the older age group. This is why I expect that ayanamsa to simply disappear over the years. I don't think there are any younger practitioners making a dedicated effort to increase the field. There are only two astrologers working to keep Fagan's works and concepts alive: Jim Eshleman and Ken Bowser. And newer research is making it necessary to take a close look at the foundations of the SVP ayanamsa. Now we have your recent research which clearly suggests a need to re-examine this ayanamsa.

TONGA VOLCANIC ERUPTION

Here’s an interesting comparison of the Krishnamurti ingress compared to the Fagan-Bradley ingress for the massive volcanic eruption that occurred on January 15 in the Tonga region. (15 January 2022 17:14:45, UZ12-13:00, Nukunuku, Tonga, 21S08 175W18)

This eruption happened just after the Krishnamurti monthly Capricorn ingress, but the preceding monthly Sagittarius ingress for Fagan-Bradley. These charts speak for themselves, and show how important that one degree of solar difference is between the two ayanamsas.



Krishnamurti
4 Cap 31 Kr Desc
2 Cap 18 Kr Pluto
0 Cap 00 Kr Sun

17 Ari 22 Kr MC
16 Ari 16 R Kr Uranus

4 Cnc 31 Kr Asc
4 Sco 16 Kr) Mean Ketu/south node (trine Asc) (Ketu=like Mars--India; 'True' node is 6°30)

Fagan-Bradley (SVP)
28 Sag 17 FB Asc
00 Cap 25 FB Pluto
01 Cap 18 FB Venus

-----------------------------------------
Krishnamurti: Pluto, Sun, Uranus, Ketu
Also note that Saturn and Mercury are in square aspect to the MC/Uranus.

Fagan-Bradley: Pluto, Venus

Therese Hamilton wrote:TONGA VOLCANIC ERUPTION

Here’s an interesting comparison of the Krishnamurti ingress compared to the Fagan-Bradley ingress for the massive volcanic eruption that occurred on January 15 in the Tonga region. (15 January 2022 17:14:45, UZ12-13:00, Nukunuku, Tonga, 21S08 175W18)

This eruption happened just after the Krishnamurti monthly Capricorn ingress, but the preceding monthly Sagittarius ingress for Fagan-Bradley. These charts speak for themselves, and show how important that one degree of solar difference is between the two ayanamsas.

Krishnamurti
4 Cap 31 Kr Desc
2 Cap 18 Kr Pluto
0 Cap 00 Kr Sun

17 Ari 22 Kr MC
16 Ari 16 R Kr Uranus

4 Cnc 31 Kr Asc
4 Sco 16 Kr) Mean Ketu/south node (trine Asc) (India says that Ketu is of the nature of Mars.)

Fagan-Bradley (SVP)
0 Aqu 23 FB Asc
2 Aqu 44 FB Jupiter
4 Tau 09 FB Moon (nadir)

15 Sco 58 FB MC
07 Sco 19 FB Mars (orb too wide)

-----------------------------------------
Krishnamurti: Pluto, Uranus, Ketu
Fagan-Bradley: Jupiter, Moon

Hi Therese: I guess I am not completely following your methodology here. I get why you chose the previous Sun ingress for the Fagan-Allen chart seeing that the eruption happened shortly before the Cp ingress of the Sun. But it doesn't seem comparative at all to use charts with different locations. Your Fagan-Allen chart is for Mount Shasta CA and your Krishnamurti ayanamsa chart is for Tonga.
Please clarify this for me? Thanks.
~AJ

AJ, I fixed that mistake, re-posted the volcano charts, and changed my notes to match the FB chart. I forgot to change the location from my place of residence, an error I make too often!! And thanks for reading carefully and pointing out that error. My old Solar Fire 5.1 tends to jump around in menus, and I have to keep moving the cursor to the correct location. Or I forget to check the 'natal' box for location in return charts.

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ, I fixed that mistake and re-posted the volcano charts and changed my notes to match the FB chart. I forgot to change the location from my place of residence, an error I make too often!! And thanks for reading carefully and pointing out that error. My old Solar Fire 5.1 tends to jump around in menus, and I have to keep moving the cursor to the correct location.

Thanks Therese. It is all too easy for these things to happen. Data entry issues are common for all of us I think. Another thing... SJS (Sri Jyoti Star) has the ingresses for Tonga are 1 hour off compared to Solar Fire but all of the planetary values and angles are fine, it's just due to which atlas they use in this case. I'm not sure off hand which atlas SJS uses. Astro.com direct atlas inquiry uses a -13 hour correction the same as Solar Fire so SJS is slightly different. If I had only SJS it would be pretty confusing with an hour difference in times between the charts you posted vs. mine.
Take Care and Blessings.
~AJ

Solar Fire uses the ACS (Astro Computing Services) atlas, but I don't have the latest version because it won't work with my old Solar Fire program. Astrolabe has done a lot of work keeping that atlas current.

Therese Hamilton wrote:TONGA VOLCANIC ERUPTION
Here’s an interesting comparison of the Krishnamurti ingress compared to the Fagan-Bradley ingress for the massive volcanic eruption that occurred on January 15 in the Tonga region. (15 January 2022 17:14:45, UZ12-13:00, Nukunuku, Tonga, 21S08 175W18)

Thanks for correcting that chart Therese. Just something I noticed building on Therese's observations. It may be completely by chance being only one example. In the event charts below notice that in the Krishnamurti ayanamsa the Moon has just ingressed into Gemini, in the Fagan-Allen chart the Moon is in the very late degree of Taurus.

Why is this important? in this instance aside from changing the whole sign house of the Moon the vimshottari sub lord changes. In the Fagan-Allen it is Ma/Sa. In the Krishnamurti chart it changes to Ma/Me. [Just a note for those that are not too familiar but vimshottari dasha is calculated from the Moon.] There are some other possible implications but I will leave them for later...

It's a close interpretive distinction in this case between the charts but the Me sub seems more relevant. Ascendant lord Venus is in the 8th house of death like situations... Not to downplay 12th lord Mars afflictions in these charts but reading the news stories the biggest concern and hurdle after the eruption is that all communications with Tonga was cut off with the ensuing tsunami and ash cloud. Mercury has just come off station and is moving very slow emphasizing the square to Uranus in the 12th house showing very sudden deprivation and broken communications. Me is afflicted by sudden Uranus from the 12 house of losses in the 9th house of fortune, so some very bad luck for Tonga. Me rules the 2nd and 5th houses and in mundane Indian astrology 2nd house is international neighbors and 5th house is the emotional state of the country.
Both charts show the event because they are close only due to the ayanamsa difference. The angular Moon conjunct the ascendant opposed by Mars in T-square with elevated Neptune. Luckily as at least the last time I checked the death and injury toll was very low considering the event (5 and 4 respectively).

As you say Therese, the ingress charts both speak for themselves.

For the Cp ingress of the Sun in Krishnamurti ayanamsa the dasha is Mo/Me... how interesting! Note the comments above for the Krishnamurti ayanamsa event chart.

For the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa Sg ingress of the Sun it is Su/Sa.

Anyway just some observations that in this case that seem to support KP ayanamsa IMO.

AJ wrote:

...Just something I noticed building on Therese's observations. It may be completely by chance being only one example. In the event charts below notice that in the Krishnamurti ayanamsa the Moon has just ingressed into Gemini, in the Fagan-Allen chart the Moon is in the very late degree of Taurus.

Why is this important? in this instance aside from changing the whole sign house of the Moon the vimshottari sub lord changes. In the Fagan-Allen it is Ma/Sa. In the Krishnamurti chart it changes to Ma/Me. [Just a note for those that are not too familiar but vimshottari dasha is calculated from the Moon.]

When I posted the Tonga volcano charts above, I used coordinates for Nukunuku pulled from Solar Fire. I didn’t bother to change the decimal values for the volcano from the USGS site to deg/min/sec. The precise coordinates change the angles by some minutes:

Precise Volcano coordinates: 20W32'45.6"; 175S23' 24"

Krishnamurti Capricorn Ingress of the Sun
4 Cnc 31 Asc Nukunuku
4 Cnc 42 Asc precise coordinates
4 Sco 46 Mean Ketu/south node

Linchi’s research supports the mean node over the ‘true’ node. I’ve found this to be true in every case I’ve tested. With the precise volcano coordinates Mean Ketu is only 4 minutes from the ascendant (by trine aspect).

17 Ari 22 MC Nukunuku
17 Ari 16 MC precise coordinates
16 Ari 46 Uranus (6 min closer to Uranus)

These precise coordinates move the Krishnamurti ascendant of the eruption from
29 Tau 53 (to)
00 Gem 04
00 Gem 03 Moon



The Moon is only one minute off the ascendant (both in the nakshatra/mansion of Mars while Mars is in the mansion of Mercury!). So Mercury becomes the ascendant lord of the Krishnamurti eruption, but with FB (as well as Lahiri!!) the ascendant remains in Taurus whose lord is Venus. Mercury as the ascendant lord conjoins Saturn and is in partile 90 degree aspect to Uranus in Aries which points to dispositor Mars on the descendant.

Mars is square Neptune on the Nonagesimal (zenith), so we have the combination of fire (the volcano) with water (Neptune) pointing to the ocean disruption, tsunamis which occurred with the eruption.

So now the dasa lords (Mars/Mercury) which AJ discussed precisely relate to the ascendant lord and Mars of the eruption. Venus, the FB ascendant lord doesn’t enter into this Mars/Mercury picture. Vimshottari Dasas, something I hadn't considered--another way to check ingress and event charts!!

Therese Hamilton wrote: When I posted the Tonga volcano charts above, I used coordinates for Nukunuku pulled from Solar Fire. I didn’t bother to change the decimal values for the volcano from the USGS site to deg/min/sec. The precise coordinates change the angles by some minutes:

Great analysis Therese. Thanks so much for your dialogue on this topic.

I view the eruption chart for Nukunuku itself as a relocation chart of the eruption and its impact on that location. Not to detract from the significance of the actual location of the eruption.

It brings to mind the eruption of Vesuvius that leveled Pompeii and Herculaneum. Modern archeologists and geologists have pretty precise times of the eruption that devastated those ancient cities. I wish I had the time to go through all of the detailed astrology of that and the very close locations. Some were spared while others were annihilated. The astrology of weather and natural disasters is a tricky one in my experience though. James brought this point up in a recent communication and I have to reaffirm it.
Blessings,
~AJ

AJ wrote:\

I view the eruption chart for Nukunuku itself as a relocation chart of the eruption and its impact on that location. Not to detract from the significance of the actual location of the eruption.

I agree that relocation charts can be an accurate way of seeing city or area impact charts for mundane events.