Skyscript Astrology Forum

As Therese has suggested, I open a new topic.
It's about my research on suicide.
Here you can see and/or download:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fc5jwlio0brbt ... e.pdf?dl=0

Therese wrote :

I'm definitely confused about your use of harmonics, when and why you use a particular harmonic.

It is a very good question. I have just briefly explained it in my research Cancer Diseases but it was not so detailed.
I use 2^n harmonics that always divide the circle to 2 e.g. 2,4,8,16,32,64.... and so on.

First reason :
The birth time that we have, will determine which harmonic we need to apply.
There are very different birth times. Some are exact to the minute, but some are rounded to a quarter and some are even rounded to the nearest hour.Sometimes we do not even have a birth time.

You can not use the same harmonic at all birth times.

If the birth time is accurate to the second : Harmonic 4096 and higher
harmonics.
if we e.g. would like to correct a birth time to the second, then we must apply at least harmonic 65536 and if we e.g. want to correct a birth time to the minute, then we must apply at least harmonic 4096.

If the birth time is accurate to the minute : Harmonic 4096,
If the birth time is accurate to within 5 minutes : Harmonic 1024,
If the birth times are rounded to quarter of an hour : up to Harmonic 256.

Many examples I have used suicide research have birth times that are rounded to quarters or hours.and sometimes I had birth times, like 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock and 18 o'clock. I think that means more than one hour are rounded.


Second reason :
It is important, what kind of planetary axis are we examine.
For example, with a birth time that rounded to the hours if we check the Neptune / Pluto axis then we can use harmonic 256 because they do not move so fast in an hour.But if we check Moon / Mercury axis then we can no longer apply harmonic 256 because Moon moves fast.

Third reason :

Not only do we have to check a harmonic, we also have to check all harmonics, depending on how exactly the birth time is.Otherwise we can not see everything, we could have seen.if e.g. Jupiter is at 3°21'07"Ari and moon at 8°58'37''Ari.
The exact harmonic that between jupiter and moon we will see, when we use harmonic-64.That means if we use harmonic 1 or harmonic 4 we will not see this equation.


Therese wrote :

Also there is very little explanation in a preface to the many illustrated charts to explain what you are doing.

In my research, I check the particular axis depending on the topic.And if I find this axis, then I show in my research,that means that confirm my assumption/my theory, e.g. if we check a murder with Mars/Saturn = Neptune/Pluto axis then I show it where that is.

I do not want to confuse the reader with trivial matters.My researches are very new.If I'm not 100 percent sure , I do not want give further.
I also do not want to take over from other astrological schools, because I'm not sure if they're right and planets/planets-axes have many positive and simultaneously negative meanings.


Here are some examples about true vs mean node :

https://ia601504.us.archive.org/14/item ... ode%20.pdf


linchi

I see that some of my confusion comes from the fact that you are combining very high harmonics with return charts and progressions. So many factors! Does this mean that if you are looking for a suicide signature you search different harmonics until you find a hit?

Also I don't really get a picture of a technique without seeing the degree/minutes/seconds of a planet--natal, harmonic and progressed, return chart or whatever you are using. If we never know how closely timed the ascendant is, how can such high harmonics be used??

It would be very helpful to label the inner or outer wheel diagrams.

It seems to me that for clarity (finding a working principle) you would have to stay with a particular set of computations, say beginning with the natal chart and then using only a particular harmonic and a particular timed chart, such as one kind of progression or return chart. If each chart uses different factors, wouldn't there be too many choices for the event you are looking for?? Sort of like using 500 asteroids to find a hit.

(I may simply not be understanding the obvious as I'm not at home with symbols only without numbers to accompany them. And I haven't worked my way through more than the first few pages of your research link.)

I think what you are doing is clear to you, but as student-astrologers we need more explanation. For myself I need to see numbers (degrees/minutes/seconds) for planets in configurations.

At this point I don't want to "go there" into the complexity of progressing return charts combined with high harmonics. That is way beyond what many astrologers can deal with. But a simple return chart based on the natal chart, that is doable. So I will zero in (questions) on Princess Stephanie's lunar return where you illustrated the difference between the mean and true nodes on the link you gave. Can you fill in these positions?

Lunar Return, Harmonic 64 Mean Node:
Lunar Rahu: (sign, deg, min, sec)
Lunar Sun: (same as above)
Lunar Venus: (same as above)

Venus natal (same as above)
Rahu natal (same as above)
Sun natal (same as above)

Thank you for your comment Therese,

Therese Hamilton wrote:I see that some of my confusion comes from the fact that you are combining very high harmonics with return charts and progressions. So many factors!

correctly

Does this mean that if you are looking for a suicide signature you search different harmonics until you find a hit?

Not completely correct.
For the suicide I used only 1,4,16 and 64 harmonics.Depending on how the birth time is correct.It is not arbitrary.

Also I don't really get a picture of a technique without seeing the degree/minutes/seconds of a planet--natal, harmonic and progressed, return chart or whatever you are using. If we never know how closely timed the ascendant is, how can such high harmonics be used??

When you talk about suicide examples, I have used lower harmonic.
In another research (The exact time of death and birth time correction) I used higher harmonic because the birth times were accurate to the minute, otherwise you can not use higher harmonic, it would be absurd.
I give all data for the examples in my research, you can check at Astrodata.

It seems to me that for clarity (finding a working principle) you would have to stay with a particular set of computations, say beginning with the natal chart and then using only a particular harmonic and a particular timed chart, such as one kind of progression or return chart. If each chart uses different factors, wouldn't there be too many choices for the event you are looking for?? Sort of like using 500 asteroids to find a hit.

Not correct.
The event must be visible in all progressions and returns up to harmonic 64.
what we will find in higher harmonics are the details for the person or event.
In my suicide or cancer research I have showed only one Return. If I were to show all the progressions and returns,then the planet states and explanations for other midpoints would be for the one person (over 360 people) it would be over 2000 pages,then I would have finished after 10 years if I lived.And is there still too much research to do.

I think what you are doing is clear to you, but as student-astrologers we need more explanation. For myself I need to see numbers (degrees/minutes/seconds) for planets in configurations.

If I showed them, you would nevertheless have to create your own horoscope and see if I made a mistake, if you want. But I do not force anyone to do it.
When researchers make an effort, then also learners have to make a little effort too.

At this point I don't want to "go there" into the complexity of progressing return charts combined with high harmonics. That is way beyond what many astrologers can deal with.

It is not for everyone.

But a simple return chart based on the natal chart, that is doable.

I think so too.

Princess Stephanie's
Lunar Return, Harmonic 64:
Lunar Rahu: 09°14'20"Lib (True node 10°35'32"Lib)
Lunar Sun: 01°18'12"Gem
Lunar Venus:13°32'02"Tau

Venus natal 02°13'46"Cap
Rahu natal 27°01'15"Tau (True node 28°38'46"Tau)
Sun natal 19°23'09"Cap

Negative as well as positive comments are welcome, this will help us to understand each other better.I thereby learn where the readers have problems and I will improve my next work.

Thanks again Therese

linchi

I have not used midpoints because there are already so many other factors that are used in India's astrology. So from your lunar return diagram for Princess Stephanie do I have this right?

There is a green line between the 64th harmonic Sun and Rahu. Then the green line in the center (arrow pointing left) is the midpoint which aligns with the midpoint between natal Rahu and Venus? (So it would be necessary to see the numerical positions of the midpoints.)

I think to make this research fully understandable there needs to be some numerical notations. But perhaps astrologers who are younger than I am and with more of a mathematical bent would quickly grasp the diagrams as you have them. I'm at the stage in life where I'm organizing, categorizing and sometimes tossing a lifetime of work rather than absorbing new approaches. Not enough mental power left!!

My sense is that astrology is expanding by leaps and bounds, and we all now have to specialize. Even in India several new schools of astrology have developed in recent years, and traditional concepts are being questioned. It's an exciting time for astrology!

I would like to see your work evaluated by someone comfortable with such complex precision. If there are always certain patterns involving Venus and Rahu for marriage, then that is something those who criticize astrology should study and be aware of. It is only precise mathematics that will eventually "prove" astrology. Precision is one of the new approaches to astrology that is leaving the simplicity of 20th century tropical astrology in the dust.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
There is a green line between the 64th harmonic Sun and Rahu. Then the green line in the center (arrow pointing left) is the midpoint which aligns with the midpoint between natal Rahu and Venus?

it is correct

I think to make this research fully understandable there needs to be some numerical notations.

sorry,I would have to do it.

I would like to see your work evaluated by someone comfortable with such complex precision. If there are always certain patterns involving Venus and Rahu for marriage, then that is something those who criticize astrology should study and be aware of. It is only precise mathematics that will eventually "prove" astrology. Precision is one of the new approaches to astrology that is leaving the simplicity of 20th century tropical astrology in the dust.

In my opinion, one would first have to convince astrologers that astrology is very accurate and precise science.


Thank you Therese

linchi

Linchi wrote:

In my opinion, one would first have to convince astrologers that astrology is very accurate and precise science.

And this raises the question: Who or what is an astrologer?? There is no standard astrology at this time, which means there is very little that can be called astrology as an academic study. We have history and a huge bag of conventional and developing techniques. We have "astrologers" who practice all the way from the foundation of a few books to a lifetime of serious study including university education, professional counseling training and astrological credentials.

With the situation as it is if I was younger, I'm not sure I would even look into astrology unless there was a university curriculum that emphasized practical research. I suppose my current view is that as a human race we're just not ready to truly understand astrology. But we're on the right track with a thorough study of astrological history which is happening now. So many thanks to the translators such as Ben Dykes, Robert Schmidt and James Holden! Any research that can be studied, reviewed and critiqued by professionals is also pointing us in the right direction. But at this time research isn't a popular topic among those with an interest in astrology.

Linchi, for marriage I've never gone beyond the 9th harmonic chart, and your contention that the north node (Rahu) must be involved is supported by Princess Stephanie's lunar return and its navamsa (Krishnamurti). I don't know if you've actually looked at this chart or only used it for the basis of 64th harmonic calculations. For most of us, the lunar return chart itself calculated for Stephanie's birth place will do just fine:

Lunar Return: 16 June 1995, 4:02:56 PM, Monte Carlo, MC (Krishnamurti)
12 Libra 44 Lunar Ascendant
09 Libra 15 Lunar Mean Rahu
11 Libra 47 Lunar Navamsa Sun
10 Libra 44 Lunar Navamsa Lot of Fortune

Not to-the-second accuracy, but appropriate symbolism nevertheless. One day (not in my time) I expect to see an astrological specialty field in harmonics. I hope you are here to see it!

For comparison here are the Fagan-Bradley positions, which is an example of why I rejected this ayanamsa long ago. However the few devoted users left will claim that only this zodiac is one One, True God-given Babylonian sidereal zodiac. Harmonics tell a different story.

11 Libra 45 Lunar Ascendant
08 Libra 16 Lunar Mean Rahu
02 Libra 58 Lunar Navamsa Sun
01 Libra 54 Lunar Navamsa Lot of Fortune

And this raises the question: Who or what is an astrologer?? There is no standard astrology at this time, which means there is very little that can be called astrology as an academic study. We have history and a huge bag of conventional and developing techniques. We have "astrologers" who practice all the way from the foundation of a few books to a lifetime of serious study including university education, professional counseling training and astrological credentials.

For the many astrologers, as I see it, it is not about astrology but different reasons.And many do not know about the different astrological directions/schools and astrological techniques.In astrology, one should learn very different astrological schools and techniques with open mind,not according to theoretical considerations but according to practical results,so you can decide better.

Linchi, for marriage I've never gone beyond the 9th harmonic chart, and your contention that the north node (Rahu) must be involved is supported by Princess Stephanie's lunar return and its navamsa (Krishnamurti). I don't know if you've actually looked at this chart or only used it for the basis of 64th harmonic calculations. For most of us, the lunar return chart itself calculated for Stephanie's birth place will do just fine:

Lunar Return: 16 June 1995, 4:02:56 PM, Monte Carlo, MC (Krishnamurti)
12 Libra 44 Lunar Ascendant
09 Libra 15 Lunar Mean Rahu
11 Libra 47 Lunar Navamsa Sun
10 Libra 44 Lunar Navamsa Lot of Fortune

I always use the birthplace for the returns.At the beginning of my research I thought to use Vedic techniques as well,e.g. D-9 ,D-6 and D-7.
But did not want to complicate the topic further.But as you show here, it's very interesting.Have you ever compared Return(Lunar,Solar)-Navamsa with Natal-Navamsa ?

Not to-the-second accuracy, but appropriate symbolism nevertheless.

One should not expect that are in lower harmonics (e.g. D-9) accurate to the second.
On the second exactness in most cases only in higher harmonics possible.

One day (not in my time) I expect to see an astrological specialty field in harmonics. I hope you are here to see it!

I do not believe for a long time that I would ever see it.

For comparison here are the Fagan-Bradley positions, which is an example of why I rejected this ayanamsa long ago. However the few devoted users left will claim that only this zodiac is one One, True God-given Babylonian sidereal zodiac. Harmonics tell a different story.

I started with classical (Vehlow) tropical astrology and learned Ebertin then Witte (Hamburger school)and stayed with the vedic astrology but i use techniques from other schools if i keep it right.Because in most schools there are truths, in some less in some more.When I learned vedic astrology many years ago I experimented with Raman and Lahiri Ayanamsa and I am convinced only with Krishnamurti Ayanamsa.I tried Fagan-Bradley Ayanamsa a few times, but it never satisfied me.

linchi

Linchi wrote:

For the many astrologers, as I see it, it is not about astrology but different reasons. And many do not know about the different astrological directions/schools and astrological techniques.In astrology, one should learn very different astrological schools and techniques with open mind,not according to theoretical considerations but according to practical results,so you can decide better.

I agree completely. To be called an astrologer today we've reached the evolutionary point where students really do need to have a background in the different astrological schools and techniques, and then decide on a personal approach based on their own practical work.

Have you ever compared Return(Lunar,Solar)-Navamsa with Natal-Navamsa?

Just recently I've started to set up quad wheels, natal + D9--Return + D9. In Stephanie's case there is a conjunction between the Lunar D9 Ascendant (24 Cap 35) and Natal D9 Venus (20 Cap07). Then in the same area we also have natal Sun and Moon in natal 7th (Raman-Vehlow) house, Krishnamurti.

19 Cap 23 Sun Natal 7th house
19 Cap 46 Moon Natal 7th house
20 Cap 07 Venus Natal D9
24 Cap 35 Asc Lunar D9

One should not expect that are in lower harmonics (e.g. D-9) accurate to the second. On the second exactness in most cases only in higher harmonics possible.

One problem I've noticed with myself, if I'm looking too closely at intricate math, intuition suffers. Math and intuition use different sides of the brain. This is why I haven't gone beyond the lower harmonics, and I do need to visually see the wheels and degrees/minutes of planets to interpret a chart. I never could relate to midpoint trees, for example. It's obvious that mathematical research and counseling/intuition take two very different mental perspectives.

I started with classical (Vehlow) tropical astrology and learned Ebertin then Witte (Hamburger school)and stayed with the vedic astrology but i use techniques from other schools if i keep it right. Because in most schools there are truths, in some less in some more

Yes, in most schools there are truths. I also combine principles from various schools--for example, Indian dasas, Hellenistic bounds, Fagan-style solar and lunar returns, Indian harmonic charts and shad bala for helping to judge planetary strength. As I like to visually see what I'm working with I've worked very little with progressions as they are strictly symbolic. Not that they don't work, only that I've let them go to concentrate elsewhere.

Linchi, we seem to agree on various principles. Do you share your birth data? It would be interesting to compare our charts. My data is public, thanks to an astrologer "friend" who put my data in AstroDatabank. I currently use a 10:58 AM time of birth. Recorded at 11 AM. If you want to share your data, you can PM me. I keep all data private.

My birth data :
17:49:13
20.03.1964 Gaziantep-Turkey


I have just compared.

Harmonic 16

my Sun = your Moon (difference 5'')
my Moon = your AC
my Jupiter = your Mercury
my Mercury = your Jupiter
my [Mercury = Jupiter = Mars/Uranus] = your [Mercury = Jupiter = Mars/Uranus]
my AC/Jupiter = your AC/Jupiter
my Neptune = your Neptune
my Uranus = your Mars
my Mars = your Uranus
my [Venus = Pluto] = your Venus/Pluto

linchi

That's a whole lot more than one gets from a natal sign-degree comparison. I would mainly be looking at your Scorpio D9 Mercury-Moon with my natal Mercury.

How did you decide on the 16th harmonic?

I'm happy that you have found the PM time (19:57:26) correct for Hillary Clinton. I came up with 20:01:30 using dubious Jyotish principles.

You have a definitive 14:00 hr. (13:59:34) for Diana, Princess of Wales. Mr. Karve, the Indian man who claims precise birth times gave 14:10. I've been using that time.

I very much like the appearance of your site. Attractive without a lot of splashy graphics to detract from content. I'm going over some of the content now and will continue tomorrow. Impressive, I must say. But I do miss sign and numerical notations.

What natal configuration in your birth chart do you credit for your ultra precise approach, Microastrology?

Why "linchi" instead of your real name? And how to pronounce that name on your site, hard or soft "Cs"?

Therese Hamilton wrote: How did you decide on the 16th harmonic?

For practical reasons.
1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128
Of these harmonics one can only see with harmonic 16 all harmonic points within harmonic 1 to harmonic 128.Therefore, you do not need to check all the harmonics above.

For example, if you only checked harmonics 16-256-4096 and 65536 you do not need to check other harmonics below.
1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048-4096-8192-16384-32768-65536

I'm happy that you have found the PM time (19:57:26) correct for Hillary Clinton. I came up with 20:01:30 using dubious Jyotish principles.

Hillary clinton's birth is definitely p.m ,not a.m
Maybe I made a few minutes error,because I used that time as a progression-key a tropical day = a tropical year.

You have a definitive 14:00 hr. (13:59:34) for Diana, Princess of Wales. Mr. Karve, the Indian man who claims precise birth times gave 14:10. I've been using that time.

if I have time, I would compare both birth times.

I very much like the appearance of your site. Attractive without a lot of splashy graphics to detract from content. I'm going over some of the content now and will continue tomorrow. Impressive, I must say. But I do miss sign and numerical notations.

Thank you Therese
I had not time this year, otherwise I wanted to a bit clean up.

What natal configuration in your birth chart do you credit for your ultra precise approach, Microastrology?

yes, you are right.I correct the birth times with harmonic 4096 to the minute, then with 65536 to the second.I only use births, marriages, divorces and deaths in the birth time correction.Except a degree a year, solar arc and primary direction I use all progressions (with sidereal keys, that means sidereal day, sidereal month and sidereal year ) , transits and returns.

Why "linchi" instead of your real name? And how to pronounce that name on your site, hard or soft "Cs"?

when I registered in astrology forums year 2006-2007 I practiced Rinzai-Zen.
The founder Rinzai is called in Chinese Lin-Chi.At that time I liked it and it has remained so.

cemal pronounce that Gemal (it means beautiful face)
cicek pronounce that Cziczek (it means flower)

linchi