Hi friends,

Can I ask you a very specific question about a chart for a friend. She asked if L7 would find a significant relationship this year. I know that normally third party questions are ruled as big no no's but I'm looking into it only because TOL inquiry caught my eye.

L1 is Venus and L7 is mars. I received feedback on this from someone who believes that TOL is happening between the moon, venus and mars.

This doesn't really make any sense to me. I thought that TOL only occurs when there is a separating aspect in a chart and an applying aspect. So in this case, the moon would need to be separating from Venus and applying to mars. When it's two applying aspects, here with the moon applying to both Venus and Mars, it just runs interference.

Also, L1 is always the person who asks the question, no matter what. So we can't assign L1 to a significant relationship.

Overall, I'm not looking for a specific answer, I just want to confirm that I'm not confusing the concept of TOL.

I also would love to confirm, because I see this happen a lot: where people read a horary chart and consider all the aspects one planet is making. Example Moon is aspecting venus, then it is aspecting mars, then it will go on to aspect... horary doesn't work like this right?

Also, I just want to attach the threads I found helpful in this because I have been digging and digging, I'm thinking this is no. This is not translation of light.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... f7c31629c2

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/s ... hp?t=45475




Thank you!



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Edit: I'm doing more research and now I'm wondering if these qualifies instead as a collection of light? Anyway help would be appreciated. Also, the reason why this question came about is she's wondering if there will be someone else standing in the way of them potentially reconciling in the future. Thanks.


Edit 2: I went back and checked the definition of collection of light across scholars and I don't believe that the moon can act as a collector of light. One, it is the fastest moving planet out of Venus and Mars and two, its less "weighty" than both. Here is the text I'm also attaching because I can't copy and paste from my text book.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/s ... hp?t=16549

Whew! I went on a goose chase today but learned so much!!

WJ, an old thread with Ms Deb Houlding's comments for your reference: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... c&start=15

My first instinct is that Moon's aspects seldom prohibit. Miss Deb said we don't have to dismiss a case like yours (a faster planet applying to both significators) as helpful just because it doesn't fit the traditional definition of "translation" or "collection". What counts is that two planets make a connection, which otherwise wouldn't exist, through a third planet. Also, Deb doesn't believe that an interposing planet automatically prohibits - it depends on what interest that third planet represents - if opposite interest then yes it would intervene. In my experience, an interception by a good aspect with a well-placed benefic doesn't necessarily prohibit. It depends on the rest of the chart.

Now, in your chart, Moon is making a trine to Venus. A good Moon-Venus aspect in a romance chart is a very positive thing (see Lilly). There is no reception, and no essential dignity, but Moon is strongly placed in the MC. Venus is cadent and peregrine but this is a trine from OK houses and if memory serves Bonatti thinks that a fortune always wants to help whether there is a reception or not - in any case this doesn't matter in this romance chart. A Moon-Venus connection that isn't ugly is positive anyway.

Remember that Moon doesn't just represent the Querent; it's also the Quesited and the relationship.

What is not so positive is that Mars L7 is in the 7th house. (You see this happens so much in romance charts when a Querent is fussing over things, often rightfully, horary must be true ) Now Tanit and I have talked about this some time ago and we both don't think it means no interest. I think though the Quesited is not going to be actively seeking a relationship with the querent, not in some time. But it doesn't mean no relationship per se.

Venus L1 is also conjunct the South Node. Also there is an angular Mercury combust near the IC and I wonder what it means.


Amelia

Hey Amelia, how are you keeping? I appreciate the time. I went through so many notes today and learned a ton. I also appreciate the thread you sent. I read through it earlier but was a bit confused, candidly, so I moved back to my textbook.

This chart originated as third party, as I explained earlier, but the basis is wanting to know if anyone stands in the way of them being together in the end.

Speaking of the Querent fussing: they are ex's who started communicating again this year but ended up in an argument and cutting contact two days ago. Mars was pushing Venus away, while still very much trying to keep tabs/access to her. Mars sitting in his own house, rings true. She describes him as selfish. Hence why I personally believe that the questied won't be in a relationship with anyone for some time. Even if I read this as third party chart or her personal chart I agree with your assessment on no relationship for some time, appreciate that insight.

Quick question on my end: do we need to take into consideration that Mars receives Venus by detriment, even with the TOL or COL? That further leads to a not so good outcome at this present moment in time.

To provide context on the south node and Venus engagement, I believe this is representing her current feelings right now. The argument hit her pretty hard and she's feeling quite a loss, again. Querent isn't asking this question from a place of strength.

Mercury rules her 12th and his 3rd. I'm leaning more toward his L3 and that they might not be in communication again for some time.

AmeliaS wrote: Also, Deb doesn't believe that an interposing planet automatically prohibits - it depends on what interest that third planet represents - if opposite interest then yes it would intervene. In my experience, an interception by a good aspect with a well-placed benefic doesn't necessarily prohibit. It depends on the rest of the chart.
Amelia

I know that third party charts are definitely fuzzy and advised against but I do have a question into this specific point. For the original question for example, moon would be a new and serious relationship with someone else. This then would be in conflict with/ opposite interest, does this automatically move to intervene. Not sure if I'm interpreting correctly.

When I first saw the chart, I was confused that another person in a relationship with Mars would be approaching Venus with a trine. That in real life doesn't add up at all.

Obviously the true question is: "Will we reconcile? Is anyone standing in the way?"

Luckily for us, charts tend to describe the true intention instead of the literal question the Querent thinks she's putting forth.

See Miss Deb Houlding's comments on the issue: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 0095d729a0

And a Skyscript article concerning the same:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/elwell1.html

I can't see anyone getting in the way, but the fourth house is so heavily loaded I had to wonder why. Maybe a new woman isn't the obstacle here. A combust mercury might hint at someone, but to me, not necessarily a new lover.

She has to keep in mind the universe has no business bending charts to fit whatever wording the querent chooses to exploit to mask their real concern. That's why Bonatti and Lilly both emphasise that the question has to be rooted and real. Best if you spend a night drilling yourself before you ask it. Bottom line, she has no business asking this as a third party and she might not admit it, but you and I both know it.

So, I agree with you that, in all likelihood, the Venus represents her.

Is it the first chart she cast on this relationship?

Sorry I missed your question: Bonatti would say it matters more whether the third planet (Moon) receives and is received. He seems to be of the view that if there is a solid translation, even an aspect by opposition between the main sigs can be rescued, so I don't think he'd really mind bad reception between the main sigs in this case.

If however we do not allow Moon to "translate" here, we would have to wonder whether the applying trine between Venus and Mars from a place of detriment can perfect matters. Bonatti plainly forbids it.

Astrologers' views differ greatly on whether a translation requires reception to work. Deb for one doesn't think reception is a must.

I would still put some significance on the Moon-Venus trine independent of what Moon does after Venus.

Amelia

AmeliaS wrote:
I can't see anyone getting in the way, but the fourth house is so heavily loaded I had to wonder why. Maybe a new woman isn't the obstacle here. A combust mercury might hint at someone, but to me, not necessarily a new lover.
Is it the first chart she cast on this relationship?

Thank you for your additional insight, she has one chart on him, cast over a year ago. That also showed reconciliation. A strong trine or sextile and between the main sigs, no-one was received by detriment. I don't believe there are any additional charts. I do have quite a few communication charts though.

Interestingly enough, this is the communication chart for their most recent breakdown. Two things stand out to me. The first being they are both in each other's 8 house of loss. Second, look what is in his first house, Mercury. Third, mercury is blocking the aspect between mars and Saturn, which ruled his L5. I don't believe that Mercury is another woman either, tbh. I'm wondering M here rules L3 and his L6. His grandma is sick with Covid, an ex-fiance? Cultural? Are you interested in Mercury as Mars next aspect after or the connection to IC?

Hello Wisdom Joy,
I have been following your thread and the interesting discussion with Amelia.
If I may add, from your first chart above, looking at the translation from the Moon to Venus and to Mars.
Assuming that he does represent Mars in his description (Self-reliant, competitive and independent. Quick to take action, argumentative and forceful) then we would be on the right track to start up with.

Mars between 27 and 29 59' can indicate it is too late to ask the question, the situation will resolve itself, without your knowledge or that he is about to move somewhere else.
The trine from the Moon to Venus will not bring any good as Venus is Mutable and Cadent and conjunct the South Node. The door is open but there is no food in the frig. Which might be interpreted in the literal sense as Venus also rules his 2nd house (radix 8th). What is left to be translated to Mars then?
And Venus will not reach Mars before it goes out of Aries.
The Moon in Leo and Angular indicates much pride and fixed demands which might be hard to overcome.
Adding Fortuna (not showing in the chart) being in Pisces, which becomes the Part of Misfortune.

Best,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Assuming that he does represent Mars in his description (Self-reliant, competitive and independent. Quick to take action, argumentative and forceful) then we would be on the right track to start up with.
Best,
Ouranos

Hey Ouranos, thank you so much for your note. The first part fits the description really well, self-reliant, competitive and fiercely independent. Here's some added descriptors that I also believe fit him, deep introvert and thinker, which for some reason doesn't seem like Mars to me. I might be wrong. Very quick to take action, flirty, but not argumentative at all. Most commonly will deject himself out of an argument as quickly as possible, especially when it requires him to show up emotionally. Part of their contention is he becomes muted when things get hard. Mars also presents to me as someone youthful, this person is quite older with also an older soul.

As a side note, Mercury can be communication. He was ghost following her on social (which is very like him, watching and keeping tabs from afar but not reaching out often or making any commitment in real life) and so she decided to block him.

He didn't mention moving to her on the phone, which I believe he would have since they discussed work briefly, so I'm assuming the situation will resolve itself.

edit: I re-read this link for my learning. https://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html I guess my question is, if we know that the moon can translate, why is her being cadent combined with him being angular and the moon, the timer sitting in an angular house work to the favour in this situation. Why does Venus being cadent over-ride the rest? Appreciate the explanation!

From a technical point of view the Moon is applying to the trine of Venus.

But to translate her light to Mars, at the time of the question the Moon
would have to be already separating from Venus, and as the Moon is still
in application to Venus but not yet separating from her, the Moon cannot
translate her light to Mars.

At the same time Venus by her trine is hindering the Moon to trine Mars.

And the collection of the light of the Moon and Venus by Mars is prohibited
by the (above mentioned) evasion of Mars before Venus can reach Mars,
if at all you would deny the prohibition of the Moon by Venus.

johannes susato wrote:From a technical point of view the Moon is applying to the trine of Venus.

But to translate her light to Mars, at the time of the question the Moon
would have to be already separating from Venus, and as the Moon is still
in application to Venus but not yet separating from her, the Moon cannot
translate her light to Mars.

At the same time Venus by her trine is hindering the Moon to trine Mars.

And the collection of the light of the Moon and Venus by Mars is prohibited
by the (above mentioned) evasion of Mars before Venus can reach Mars,
if at all you would deny the prohibition of the Moon by Venus.

Thanks so much for your perspective. I also thought TOL wasn't possible but COL was up for grabs. I didn't realize that COL was dependent on Mars and Venus connecting in the same sign. Am I misreading your note? But I also couldn't find any literature that specified this so I just assumed it was the moon (who was collecting), that needed to aspect both planets before they changed signs.

If the moon represents the actual question being asked (a relationship and no-one intervening), why is it approaching the venus by trine? I'm confusing myself here but why is this such a positive aspect for Venus who wants these things and is hasn't achieved them as of yet?