Skyscript Astrology Forum

I want to share the way Morinus used his primary directions. I've checked dozens of charts, and the accuracy is impressive.

To illustrate this method in action, I wrote an article forecasting Princess Diana's death.

https://astro-school.org/diana-death/

For those interested in the technical details of primary directions, here is another useful article. Wikipedia and AstroWiki refer to it https://astro-school.org/primary-directions/

I hope you'll find it helpful.

My best,
Mark[/url]

hi mark

thanks for sharing.. i liked your article... i had to mess with the settings i have in morinus to get the same results... i switched from ptolemy key to naibod key to get the results you have shared... also, in sidereal whole sign houses, it is the 2nd and 8th lords that meet - jupiter and mercury... here is the chart in sidereal..



what i find challenging about using pd's is all the options.. i think it was martin gansten who suggested using the primary key ptolemy, as opposed to naibod...

here are the results using ptolemy as the primary key..



here it is with naibod as the primary key..



1/2 year difference, is a big difference... i am not convinced of the use of primary directions still.. i feel they need another technique to backup the info gotten to make it more likely and consistent.. even in your overview in the article - you offer 3 possible scenarios -
"Mercury to Mars or Mars to Mercury/Ascendant
Saturn's opposition to Mercury
Jupiter's opposition to Mercury"

how does an astrologer work with something like this, other then in hindsight?? i find it hard to incorporate them in all the attempts i have made to include them in a consideration of the chart.. thanks for sharing your insights..

Interesting article. I enjoyed reading it.

I struggling with them reading Martins book. Took an excellent course by Luis Ribeiro on traditional prediction techniques which included Primary directions. I tend to like them more and more. But like James says the different settings is a bit annoying sometimes. I use Ptolemy Key which is recommended for beginners by both Gansten and Ribeiro. I find that in directions in Primary direction the timing is often better than the solar arc's which in some cases show same directon but with a different timing due to the difference of directing in Right Ascension on the celestial equator for PD's.

Looking at the date of Diana's death. I use Ptolemy key and direct Primary directions. The most interesting imo is Primary directed Moon (8th ruler Alcabitius) in 120' trine to natal Mars (8th house). This direction is expressing the natal Moon-180-Mars (8th), (Moon rules Alcabitius 8th as well)
this make sense with rulerships and houseplacements. But now to the problem.

Problem with this direction is that it is WITH Latitude. And according to Ribeiro and I think also Martin is that aspects with Latitude should be used primarily with conjunctions and oppositions. This Moon-120'-Mars without latitude is perfected later on in timing not fitting with the death.

But now I am asking myself; did aspects with latitude that also include the Moon as heavenly body ? Or could that be done for the Moon with Latitude ?Not sure what was said about that ?

Any input on this ?

If one wants to compare different styles of directing, it might be better to start with a less contested birth chart. Also, the article uses the 'Regiomontanus' (position-circle) method of directing, just as Morin did, but the table posted by James uses the 'Placidus' (semi-arc) method. They can differ by several years for some directions, even when the same equation of time ('key') is used.

Then there is indeed the question of assigning latitudes to aspects, which Morin did advocate. He had his own somewhat complex method of doing so, and I am not aware of any software that incorporates it (not even the two different applications called Morinus!). It is described in Book XXII, section II, chapters 2-3 of his Astrologia Gallica (translated by James Holden).

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Morin, if presented with this chart of Princess Diana and the date of her death, would have attributed it at least primarily to Jupiter as ruler of the (tropical) ascendant being directed by direct motion to the square of the Sun in the 7th house, which he would have considered co-ruler of the 8th house as all of Leo is intercepted within it.

james_m wrote: here it is with naibod as the primary key..

The "Morinus" program you mentioned calculates the aspects on the equatorial or zodiacal plane in the Placidus system, while Morinus (astrologer) created a special circle of aspects https://astro-school.org/circle-of-aspects/ and used Regiomontanus's way of dividing the sphere to find mundane conjunctions. It explains the difference in results.

You may use another software - https://morinus.work/ for calculating direction in Morinus's way and to get 3D visualization of any direction.

james_m wrote: how does an astrologer work with something like this, other then in hindsight??

There are several rules for filtering directions.

1. First, not all of them will produce results. You can read about it over https://astro-school.org/direction-realisation/
2. Promittor/significator repeats a particular meaning several times. F.e. Sun (the significator of fame) in the 10th house (house of fame) aspecting the ruler of the 10th house (fame) and depositing a noble planet in the 10th house - 4 times indicates fame and not something else in the chart. Hence the Sun in direction as promittor (if concur with the significator) will bring fame. It also filters directions where the Sun's aspect would kill, dissipate money, etc., because it will not.
3. In the chart of revolution, you observe the radix places of the promittor and significator, and also the same planets in the revolution. So you will get a clue about the exact meaning of the direction and whether it produces results in that year.
4. Finally, you check transits in the revolution chart to clarify the exact month and day when the event occurs.

Yes, it is time-consuming and complex, but it gives information-rich and detailed forecasts.

Stefan wrote: But now I am asking myself; did aspects with latitude that also include the Moon as heavenly body ? Or could that be done for the Moon with Latitude ?Not sure what was said about that ?
Any input on this ?

Thanks, Stefan,

Morinus used the latitudes of each planet as described here https://astro-school.org/circle-of-aspects/ and here https://astro-school.org/blog/category/ ... ions-calc/

He spent decades practicing direction and found the optimal combination which gives results +/- a few months from the event.

Here is the magic combination:

1. The Naibod key
2. Mundane aspects in the circle of position (see the link above)
3. Regiomontanus house system as a basis for mundane conjunctions.

To make the story short, you don't need to be a mathematician to calculate all these things or adjust different settings. You can use this software https://morinus.work/ to get ready-to-use directions in Morinus's style.

Martin Gansten wrote:Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Morin, if presented with this chart of Princess Diana and the date of her death, would have attributed it at least primarily to Jupiter as ruler of the (tropical) ascendant being directed by direct motion to the square of the Sun in the 7th house, which he would have considered co-ruler of the 8th house as all of Leo is intercepted within it.

Hi Martin,

Good point. The square of the Sun can be an additional indication of death since it falls into the domicile of Mars. However, it is not as bright as the Saturn/Jupiter opposition (since the Sun ruler the empty space and is not an accidental malefic by celestial state).

But in addition to the main killing direction, it supports the indication of the event. As you see from the screenshot, these two killing directions come together, which often happens when it comes to a major event in life.



I've tested Morinus's logic on dozens of charts - and so far, I need help finding a single chart where the Morinus approach would fail. So the only reason I publish the chart of Diana is that it is debated.

The next post will be devoted to George VI.

further to martins comments, it doesn't really change using regiomontanus method for primary directions... again it is the use of a different primary key - ptolemy verses naibod that matters... i just checked... here are the pds for regionmontanus using ptolemy key..




here they are regio with naibod as the primary key..




that is a 6 or 7 month difference, depending on which primary key you use...

as for martins comment :

Martin Gansten wrote: Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Morin, if presented with this chart of Princess Diana and the date of her death, would have attributed it at least primarily to Jupiter as ruler of the (tropical) ascendant being directed by direct motion to the square of the Sun in the 7th house, which he would have considered co-ruler of the 8th house as all of Leo is intercepted within it.

using whole house system - sidereal - as seen in my first post on this thread - the square of jupiter to sun brings the 2nd house ruler to sun in the 8th..

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mark,
like i said to martin - it doesn't matter whether it is placidius or regio - the choice of primary key is what makes the difference in terms of time... the one is 1/2 year out, verses the other... morinus software does them both!

i appreciate your additional commentary on filtering directions - something you don't go into in your article.. the way i see it, primary directions are not an easy tool to add to my toolbox at present.. reading martins books have not been convincing either - as much as i appreciate both of your convictions on their use and value.. and i do agree with martin - not sure about just how confident we can be with the diana birth time... thanks for your posts!

james_m wrote: mark,
like i said to martin - it doesn't matter whether it is placidius or regio - the choice of primary key is what makes the difference in terms of time...

Not exactly.

The two points will have a different arch of direction to conjunction in different house systems. The plane of the circle of aspect also matters. The timing key also matters. While all three are essential, you are playing with one parameter (the timing key).

Have a look at these two pictures.

https://astro-school.org/static/img/main/regio-dir3.svg
https://astro-school.org/static/img/mai ... s-dir2.svg

The green line defines a spatial (or mundane) conjunction of two points. They are conjunct when they are both on the same line. The line differs from one house system to another. It is a circle in Regiomontanus and an S-shaped curve in Placidus.

The circle of aspects is a plane. It is not the equator or the ecliptic in Morinus's approach. It is calculated differently. Your program doesn't use this plane at all. More precisely, it uses (depending on your settings):

* equator plane for the mundane directions
* ecliptic for zodiacal directions
* plane parallel to ecliptic for field plane directions (zodiacal with latitude)
* or the circle of Bianchini (if it can calculate it)

But Morinus's circle of position is different. So the promittor's (aspect's) coordinates in your program do not coincide with what Mornus used in his work.

That is why your app has an entirely different mathematical length for arcs and, consequently, for timing.

That is why I highly recommend using the https://morinus.work/ online chart to get the right length of the arcs and correct timing.

Thanks Markusborn for your post.
Just to add a few comments here with my partial understanding on which method is best from what I have read before on Diana's death.
And maybe you can comment on Bezza's analysis.

Here is an illustrated guide to Morinus Directions as per Margherita Fiorello which I think is close to what Martin Gansten recommends. Maybe Martin can validate.

https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com/2 ... irections/
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And here is another view of the PD for Diana's death published on Cieloeterra by Giuseppe Bezza and Marco Fumagalli in 1997.
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.prin ... pessa.html
1. the Sun is very close to the declination of natal Mars;
2. the Sun and Mars have acquired a parallel in mundo in the figure of direction;
Parallels in the world : these are figures that occur in the local sphere when two stars are separated by the meridian, at the same hourly distance from the meridian itself. They are also called antiscia in mundo. Jim Lewis with his Astro*Carto*Graphy has shown that lines running in parallel in a map of the world are areas of great importance and significant to the native. Another way to look at it is to consider that the Angles are at the midpoints of 2 planets.
3. The Sun is about to conjoin Regulus in the zodiac, and Regulus the Sun in mundo;
4. Saturn is about to join the horoscope (ASC);
5. The Part of Fortune precisely opposes Jupiter;
6. The Moon has just passed opposition to the Sun in mundo.
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As for the term or bound, Diana was at the end of a Saturn term in Capricorn about to enter a Mars term (11 minutes). Considering the parallel in mundo of Sun and Mars, I would be tempted to rectify her natal chart by adding 38 seconds.

Here is what Anthony Louis says about the term.
"The planet ruling the term crossing the Ascendant by primary motion at a given moment is called the “divisor??? because it is the planet that rules the “division??? (term) which is on the eastern horizon at the time. Because the measure of time is about 1 degree crossing the MC in Right Ascension (along the Equator) equivalent to one year of life, a particular planet can remain the divisor (time lord of the term of the primary directed Ascendant) for several years.
In addition to the planet which rules the term (bound, division) of the primary directed Ascendant, other planets in the chart may be projecting their rays into that term. Planets beholding the term of the Ascendant by major aspect are considered partners of the divisor and are often called participants or participating planets. Abu Ma’shar (9th century CE) defined the participant as the planet that most recently connected with the Ascendant by major aspect or bodily conjunction."
(Anthony Louis, Divisors and Participating Planets)
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2021/11 ... as-a-team/
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Ouranos wrote: And maybe you can comment on Bezza's analysis.

I'll show you the 3D image of the killing direction:





- The yellow line with a bold dot close to pars of Fortune is the opposition from Jupiter - it is slightly above the ecliptic (a purple line) because it is cast in the circle of positions, not in the ecliptic. This bold yellow dot is the promittor
- The green dotted line passed through South and Mercury is the circle of the position of the significator.
- The red line is the path the descending promittor (yellow dot) will pass till it meets the fixed dotted line. This is the primary direction of around 35 degrees. It corresponds to 36 years.

All other planets, cusps, stars, etc., do not participate in directions. The idea of direction is that one and only one point moves together with the celestial sphere until it meets the circle of position, passed through the other planet.

Bezza directed several planets, which is contrary to Morinus's approach. We need two planets - promittor and significator.

See this article for an explanation of this principle: https://astro-school.org/promittors-significators/