Are they really the higher octaves of the terrestrial planets? Do their meanings derive (partly) from the classical planets? Do observations made by generations of astrologers back up their modern significations?

To everyone on this forum willing to participate, please explain your thoughts.

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I will get the ball rolling by stating my case first:

“Neptune’s significations derive heavily from Saturn; Neptune has more in common with Saturn than with either benefics.”

“The theology and mysticism of Saturn is apophatic, not cataphatic.”

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ce ... _Discovery

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Please ask any questions my way regarding my case.

hey! it's a big question! could work in the philosophy section too...

i'd like to think my own views on the meanings of the outer planets is based on observation, however subjective this may be as an answer.. in my life i have had neptune, uranus and then pluto transit over my ascendant - all with very different experiences coming out of this.. now of course other transits were happening at the time too, so i can't rule out my own subjectivity in all of this, but i would say that the experiences were unique to ideas i have about these outer planets... maybe i am imagining it, or trying to give a symbol to a variety of experiences.. it's possible...

more of my views on this are based on observation of others which is probably again a mix of subjective and objective viewpoints.. and, i do project into the future as well with these same ideas i have come to associate with these 3 outer planets.. i am sure those uranian astrologers do something similar with the larger listing of hypothetical planets too... and probably it is the same for those who focus on asteroids and other dwarf planets and etc. etc. too...

so i guess my answer is - the meanings originate in astrologers first hand experience of them, however subjective this might be..

Hello, James.

james_m wrote: more of my views on this are based on observation of others which is probably again a mix of subjective and objective viewpoints.. and, i do project into the future as well with these same ideas i have come to associate with these 3 outer planets.. i am sure those uranian astrologers do something similar with the larger listing of hypothetical planets too... and probably it is the same for those who focus on asteroids and other dwarf planets and etc. etc. too...

so i guess my answer is - the meanings originate in astrologers first hand experience of them, however subjective this might be..

I think that as long as multiple people have similar first hand experiences, a consensus may be reached on what the outer planets signify. Emotions are real, even though they are subjective. So, too, I think, that a person’s first hand experience is real, just that they must be compared to the experiences of others.

However, though I did not clarify this in my first post, I believe that many of the meanings of the outer planets can be traced to their discovery charts, whether astrologers realise this or not.

To go back to Neptune’s discovery chart, it is the only one of the three discovery charts where the outer planet is conjunct Saturn. Uranus and Pluto are opposite Saturn in their own discovery charts by sign.

The moment I saw Neptune conjunct Saturn, my mind immediately jumped to the conclusion that most of Neptune’s significations throughout the years - further cemented by, as you mentioned, the first hand experience of astrologers - actually derive from Saturn. And a domicile Saturn at that.

To summarise, I believe that the discovery charts of the outer planets are also important in delineating their meanings.

Ironically, I feel that, of the three discovery charts, Neptune’s is the easiest to delineate, even though it is the planet of fog, illusion and deception. I also feel that Neptune and Saturn are, therefore, not as antithetical as they seem.

To go back to your point though, James, my interpretation is ultimately subjective.

Thank you for replying, James.

hi mr gallows

i imagine there is some truth to what you say about the discovery chart having some insight into the nature of the planet.. i like the idea of the general time frame of the discovery of the planet coinciding with world events more generally as better though... pluto - discovered at the time of the depression when the party is over for example - that seems relevant... i think uranus was discovered close to the french revolution and the independence of the usa... with regard to neptune - i think the era at the time reflects some of the nature of the planet....

Mr Gallows wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:14 am ...
However, though I did not clarify this in my first post, I believe that many of the meanings of the outer planets can be traced to their discovery charts, whether astrologers realise this or not.

To go back to Neptune’s discovery chart, it is the only one of the three discovery charts where the outer planet is conjunct Saturn. Uranus and Pluto are opposite Saturn in their own discovery charts by sign.

The moment I saw Neptune conjunct Saturn, my mind immediately jumped to the conclusion that most of Neptune’s significations throughout the years - further cemented by, as you mentioned, the first hand experience of astrologers - actually derive from Saturn. And a domicile Saturn at that.

To summarise, I believe that the discovery chart of the outer planets is also important in delineating their meanings.

Hi Mr Gallows,

I'd never considered that the outer planets' meanings might be related to their discovery charts. Interesting idea.

Note that in Graeco-Roman mythology, all of the gods these planets are named after are literally related. Uranus is the father of Saturn, and Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto are Saturn's children. And Saturn attempts to eat them, which certainly supports his reputation as "the greater malefic." From Wikipedia:

... Terra (Gaea) foretold that one of the sons of Saturn (Cronus) would overthrow him, just as he had overthrown his father, Caelus (Uranus). To prevent this, Saturn ate his children moments after each was born, eating the gods Vesta (Hestia), Ceres (Demeter), Juno (Hera), Pluto (Hades), and Neptune (Poseidon). His wife Ops (Rhea) eventually hid his sixth child and third son, Jupiter (Zeus), on the island of Crete, deceiving Saturn by offering a stone wrapped in swaddling in his place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Devouring_His_Son

I don't think the classical myth precludes your idea. It's more likely a case of "it's all connected."

--stargeezer

Mr Gallows wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:15 am Are they really the higher octaves of the terrestrial planets? Do their meanings derive (partly) from the classical planets? Do observations made by generations of astrologers back up their modern significations?

To everyone on this forum willing to participate, please explain your thoughts.

-

I will get the ball rolling by stating my case first:

“Neptune’s significations derive heavily from Saturn; Neptune has more in common with Saturn than with either benefics.”

“The theology and mysticism of Saturn is apophatic, not cataphatic.”

Hello, Mr. Gallows. I had to look up apophatic and cataphatic—thanks for the new vocabulary words (though I doubt I'll be able to put them to good use in everyday conversation lol). I agree with this take on Saturn:Neptune.

Have you happened upon Sue Ward's essay: Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto: an investigation into the sources of their symbolism, in your research of this yet? In it, she discusses the discovery charts (and so much more). I highly recommend it.

Jason wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 8:46 am Hello, Mr. Gallows. I had to look up apophatic and cataphatic—thanks for the new vocabulary words (though I doubt I'll be able to put them to good use in everyday conversation lol). I agree with this take on Saturn:Neptune.

Have you happened upon Sue Ward's essay: Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto: an investigation into the sources of their symbolism, in your research of this yet? In it, she discusses the discovery charts (and so much more). I highly recommend it.

Hi, Jason,

Thank you for telling me about Sue Ward’s essay. I have never seen it before.

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I just searched her essay and found an online copy. Hooray!

Also, I’m glad to have expanded your vocabulary, haha. I, too, didn’t know what cataphatic and apophatic theology were until around 3 months ago.

Also, if you’re wondering which planet is cataphatic, I think it’s Jupiter.

More questions - and not just from you, Jason - regarding my case about Neptune’s origins would be welcome. I’ve only mentioned Neptune’s discovery chart thus far because it’s the one I’m most familiar with, or rather, I feel that it is the simplest one to explain. The idealism, illusion and fog of Neptune derives from Saturn, as I’ve said before.

I’ve been honing on the outer planets and their aspects in their discovery charts rather than inspecting the rest of the charts. Maybe I should do that, as more information may be gleaned.

james_m wrote: hi mr gallows

i imagine there is some truth to what you say about the discovery chart having some insight into the nature of the planet.. i like the idea of the general time frame of the discovery of the planet coinciding with world events more generally as better though... pluto - discovered at the time of the depression when the party is over for example - that seems relevant... i think uranus was discovered close to the french revolution and the independence of the usa... with regard to neptune - i think the era at the time reflects some of the nature of the planet....

Very true, James. The significations of the outer planets also come from global events that occurred around their discoveries.

With regard to Neptune, the Communist Manifesto was published on the 21st of February, 1848, two years after Neptune was discovered. Both the Sun and Neptune were conjunct in Pisces, and Saturn was copresent. And yeah, collectivism is heavily associated with Neptune, in contrast to Uranus’ individualism.

You may also consider that ether was publically demonstrated as an anaesthetic for the first time on the 16th of October, 1846, three weeks after Neptune’s discovery. Neptune and Saturn were still conjunct in Aquarius. However, I wouldn’t overlook the Venus-Mars conjunction in Libra (with the Sun and Mercury copresent), if that has any relevance to the event.

I’m looking at Astrodienst’s 1846 and 1848 ephemerides, by the way.

hey mr. gallows,

are you hanging onto that Sue Ward essay: Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all for yourself, or are you going to share a link? lol.. thanks..

james_m wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:11 pm hey mr. gallows,

are you hanging onto that Sue Ward essay: Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all for yourself, or are you going to share a link? lol.. thanks..

Hello, James,

There are two websites that have Sue Ward’s essay. One is Scribd and the other is pdfcoffee.com:

https://www.scribd.com/document/3495269 ... Susan-Ward

https://pdfcoffee.com/uranus-neptune-pl ... -free.html

I recommend pdfcoffee because you get to read it ad-free without registering an account.

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Anyways, my heart jumped when I read Page 68-69 of Sue Ward’s 2002 essay: “The Sun is the greatest power in the heavens, it exudes great power, heat and energy by nuclear reaction; all of these principles were given to Pluto, the planet which is the furthest away from the Sun and thus shows the least light.”

That sentence hit me because, for a while, I thought I was alone in thinking that the Sun was essentially a massive, nuclear power plant, and that Pluto’s association with nuclear energy derives from the Sun.

Glad to see at least Sue Ward make the connection between the Sun and nuclear energy.

Now that I have her essay saved into my phone, I have more time to read and understand it.

thanks mr gallows...

scribd is a rip off site.. i don't recommend it for anything! i will check out the pdf link.. hopefully it isn't owned by scribd!

the meanings of planets is complicated... your quote on the sun verses pluto is a case in point.. there is some sort of parallel here that i can't describe, but it is not all one or the other, although that would be much easier... duality is built into our world and meaning can be found in the exact opposite area then we might expect... it is like the duo saturn and sun - both seem to define opposites - dark verses light - but that is only on one level... for a detailed analysis of this type thinking, check out liz greenes book ' saturn, a new look at an old devil'...

looking at pdf coffee.. same deal.. they offer a bogus address - Address:

46748 Colby MotorwayHettingermouth, QC T3J 3P0

doesn't exist.. it is made up!! probably another scribd outlet.. oh well..

Interesting discussion...
In the larger sense, the meanings likely originated with the planets, themselves.

They do seem like higher octave versions of other planets...

...Uranus has that sudden, exhilarating, liberating quality, and sense of discovery that makes sense as a higher octave of Mercury.
...Neptune has that larger-than-self, empathetically connecting, devotional quality; that makes sense as a higher octave of Venus.
...Pluto has that transformative, autonomy-seeking, power element; that makes sense as a higher octave of Mars.

I remember psychic Edgar Cayce (in trance) describing a planet that would soon be discovered. He listed various traits that are in-line with how we now associate Pluto, in terms of meaning. Though the planet hadn't been discovered yet, so hadn't been named; he referred to it with different names, but the meanings and the impending discovery were 100% correct. Giving the correct meanings before the astronomical discovery, implies 0% earthbound observation being necessary, in associating the meanings with the planet.

Atlantean wrote:

...Pluto has that transformative, autonomy-seeking, power element; that makes sense as a higher octave of Mars.

I remember psychic Edgar Cayce (in trance) describing a planet that would soon be discovered. He listed various traits that are in-line with how we now associate Pluto, in terms of meaning. Though the planet hadn't been discovered yet, so hadn't been named; he referred to it with different names, but the meanings and the impending discovery were 100% correct. Giving the correct meanings before the astronomical discovery, implies 0% earthbound observation being necessary, in associating the meanings with the planet.

"Power" is probably not a trait that belongs to Pluto. There are not very many Cayce comments on Pluto, but here are his primary comments. The Reading comments below don't really reflect how many astrologers are interpreting Pluto today.
.

..Pluto...it is gradually growing, and thus is one of those influences that are to be as a demonstrative activity in the future affairs or developments of man towards the spiritual-minded influences or those influences outside of himself....Rather within the next hundred to two hundred years there may be a great deal of influence upon the ascendancy of man...and is a developing influence and not one already established. (Reading 1100-27)

Pluto and Vulcan are one and the same. No Lilith. Lilith is a personality.
(Reading 826-8)

In the influences that bring for warnings, as seen in Mars and Vulcan–beware of fire, and especially of firearms or explosives...(Reading 1735-2)

Cayce did refer to a "Septimus", but what he said about that planet didn't especially relate to what he said about Pluto above.. In reading 487-1 he linked Septimus to digestive problems, and in Reading 5717-1 he linked Septimus to financial affairs. In both cases he also named other astrological factors in the same sentence. "Septimus" may have been Pluto, but there's not much in the readings to go on to make a definite case.