SadgeSun wrote

When its all done and dusted I would really like to hear from as many astrologers as possible whose predictions were incorrect, their assessment on where they found their predictions didn’t pan out and their thoughts on why. Would that be too torturous an exercise? One of the best ways to learn is when things dont go according to plan.
https//skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12789&start=12

SadgeSun, I’m happy to share my perspective because in retrospect I see that the ennead charts I used were correct, but my personal bias (which I always admitted) chose less important planetary configurations over those that mattered more.

THE ENNEAD CHARTS WERE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT. Caught up in the Jupiterian optimism that surrounded Kamala Harris, here is how my analysis changed from my original thoughts:

I had determined way back in June of 2023 that Biden could not have a second term. I wrote on the sidereal astrology forum on June 23 about Biden’s 2023 solar return which covers July in 2024 when he withdrew his bid for a second term.

This 2023 solar return is not the chart of a head of state. Double Neptunes cross the asc/desc axis. Fagan school astrologers will tell us that an angular Neptune represents political defeat or invisibility in return charts. There are no other angular planets in this solar return.
https://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopi ... 3&start=12

Donald Trump’s Election Ennead
I don’t remember when I first calculated Trump’s 2024 election ennead which is set for 16 October 2024, but it was “before Kamala.” I remember my instant thought was, “It doesn’t matter who the Democrats run against Donald Trump because he will win the election with this chart.” Here is Trump’s election ennead which I partially discussed on a Skyscript election topic: (Destiny and the USA Presidential Election)



I wrote:

Trump’s election ennead looks powerful, and is an added indication to others who have suggested that at election time it may look like Donald Trump is winning the election.

The full Moon crosses from the ascendant to descendant. Transiting Jupiter sits directly on natal Rahu with the Sun in the 10th natal sign. This Jupiter is closely trine the angular ennead Sun in the 7th house. Natal Jupiter is just below the 7th cusp.

[I neglected to mention that Trump’s natal Jupiter sits on the 7th cusp of this ennead chart, and that Jupiter is in the degree of the USA chart’s natal Saturn.]

We might ask if there are any suggestions in this chart that might spoil such a positive configuration?

(1) The powerful Jupiter trine points to the Sun above the cusp of the 7th house. The Sun is in a star of Mars (strong), but in Saturn’s sub, a negative since the Saturn rules Trump’s six and 7th house and is in the natal 12th house.

(2) Natal Moon with Ketu (Moon’s south node) on the all important 9th cusp is elevated over the potent 3rd house transiting Jupiter on natal Rahu/Sun.

Mars on the nadir and squaring the Sun points to the contest of the election. (Remembering that the election ennead for Kamala Harris also has an angular Mars at the MC.)

Since both the Harris and Trump election enneads have signatures for success, we must go to the following enneads for more information. These enneads begin later in November.

https://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12663

From this point on due to my trust in Kamala Harris and my personal wish that she would win, my analysis of charts went downhill. Also I shared the thought of so many U.S. citizens: "No way, no way can there be another Trump presidency!!" I must hand it to Kenneth Bower who didn't let his personal bias get in the way of his prediction. Joni Patry on the other hand, a Texas native, seems to have always been in the Trump political camp.

In this U.S. election a number of psychics came off just as bad as astrologers. Once in a while I had been checking psychics on web sites who "saw" Kamala Harris being inaugurated. In this respect a shock wave went through the psychic community when Trump so easily won the election. I’m waiting to see what excuses psychics use for their error which was a very secure pronouncement on their part.

Kamala Harris Election Ennead (This is her solar return chart for the coming year.)
Taking a second look at Kamala Harris’ election ennead which was also her solar return for the coming year:



Here is where I made my major mistake in judging this chart. I wrote:

Mars at the MC making its powerful fourth house (90 degree) aspect to natal Sun activates that natal Sun in the ennead first house. Mars at the MC no doubt reflects great activity and the contest of the campaign.

Hello, Therese!! Mars is a major malefic for Kamala’s Gemini rising natal chart. We don’t want it dominating an election chart, so strongly placed at the MC. In this ennead/solar return Mars is opposing Pluto at the IC which places Harris’ natal Sun/Mercury opposite her Moon at the midpoint of this configuration.

Yes, this transiting Mars/Pluto opposition has determined the political fate of Kamala Harris, due to its very angular position in her 2024 solar return. The potent Jupiter/Moon in the chart which is trine the ascendant seems to have only indicated her role in this prominent election contest. (I saw this as her victory since Moon/Jupiter conjoined her natal ascendant.)

So it’s as I said: The ennead charts were correct, but my analysis was flawed due to wishful thinking and bypassing obvious problems and questions. It’s the same struggle we all have as astrologers: How to interpret the symbols of astrology, and how to balance all the seemingly conflicting planetary configurations in a chart.

hi therese

i saw that mars in cancer close to the midheaven and in opposition to pluto and thought much the same... maybe i could have been more helpful in pointing some of this out.. i found the whole astrological process around this election challenging, beginning with my suspicions around the accuracy of bidens birth time.. that just never went away, although he was eventually replaced by kamala harris whose chart was indeed accurate.. getting our own personal viewpoint out of the way is indeed difficult.. as mark notes in the post election comment thread from yesterday, he cites wade caves as suggesting it is difficult to impossible.. i have said much the same thing - i use the word ''subjectivity'' and believe it overshadows all of our work... i don't think we ever really put our personal viewpoints aside, but that is sort of what we have to do in order to consider the astrology in the most objective manner.. cheers james

James wrote:

I saw that mars in cancer close to the midheaven and in opposition to pluto and thought much the same... maybe i could have been more helpful in pointing some of this out..

Who knows, James!? Maybe if you had said something (to shake me out of a Neptunian haze!) I would have changed back to my original observation that no one could beat Trump's election ennead. The double Jupiter/Sun is SO obvious, very, very powerful. It is said that our first intuition about something is likely to point to the truth.

I use the word ''subjectivity'' and believe it overshadows all of our work... i don't think we ever really put our personal viewpoints aside, but that is sort of what we have to do in order to consider the astrology in the most objective manner.. cheers james

No doubt it's almost always true that we can't get out of our own minds. But Kenneth Bowser pretty well manages an objective viewpoint. He has the political knowledge and pulse of America that I don't have, and he is also a top notch technical astrologer, a real astrologer as such.

Thanks for your reply, James. As for politics, I have to congratulate you on having the pulse of political situations in countries around the world. That is a lost area to me. It would take me quite a while to catch up.

Thank you Therese and James for your comments which I found very helpful. I really appreciate both your honest self-reflections.

Over the weekend I came across these two astrologers, who I follow from time to time, with their thoughts on the US election outcome. The first one is Gurmeet Singh, a Vedic Astrologer, who was very much in favour of Kamala Harris winning. I don’t have a grasp of Vedic astrology, so I don’t understand some of the descriptions he uses, but he conveys himself in a way for me to grasp the gist of what he’s saying.

https://www.vedicnakshatras.com/joe-bid ... ology.html

“1. When you are making astrology predictions about the presidential election, we usually compare astrology charts of the two presidential candidates. This is what I also did. But there is a third astrology chart which we overlooked that is more important than the astrology charts of the two presidential candidates, and that is the astrology chart of the country, United States. United States is in Rahu mahadasha and Rahu in the natal astrology chart is in the 8th house of loss. Donald Trump entered politics soon after the Rahu mahadasha started in August 2015. This Rahu mahadasha is not going well for the country. We still have 8 more challenging years left in Rahu mahadasha. The working-class people in the country will be dissatisfied and go from one political party to the other, but it is not going to change anything, while the country is in a difficult Rahu mahadasha…”

And the other was Kenneth Bowser who correctly predicted Trump’s victory.

The extract below is from KB’s Fb page. I have since read on his Fb page that he is definitely not a Trump supporter. I’ll let his words express his thoughts:

“…although if people put down their biases, their pet techniques and got out of the leftie bubble that most of us live in and just concentrated on planets and planet combinations, they would do much better. People were extrapolating their hoped-for outcome with a thin astrological veneer laid over those hopes. All of that has to go. If you're an extrapolater you don't see the symbolism. You're looking for excuses to support an outcome. You have to be neutral and realize that there are people who embrace positions quite opposite your own. You can't think about them or your own positions. You have to be simultaneously rational and irrational and then above even that. You have to be nowhere, everywhere and beyond place.”

"…(name withheld)Have I left the impression that I'm a Trump supporter? Nothing could be further from my position. I consider his election a disaster of staggering proportions and that bringing along a nut job like RFK only makes things worse.”

thanks therese

the problem is the relativity of all the different comments from an astrological angle.. it is just too much to absorb, let alone suggesting a different interpretation to someone else... one has to respect how people come to their conclusions to a large extent.. it is perhaps more difficult for some astrologers to get out of their personal attachments to arrive at an impartial position.. i know it is for me!! at least ken bowser is up front about it, which does help to treat his commentary in a more neutral manner perhaps.. he doesn't like trump, and yet he predicted he would win... that takes a special kind of person perhaps...

i got a kick out of marks passing comment on another thread where he pointed out some astrologers have made predictions based along party lines for the past few elections, to the point, they can be more readily dismissed, now and in the next election if they continue to do the same!! you gave it your best shot and there is nothing to be ashamed of... thanks for sharing your work as i do think it is quite a fascinating consideration - enneads...

thanks sadgesun!

of course using a natal chart for the country is a good and valid way to come to a conclusion of the possible winner.. the problem here is what the plethora of charts for the usa to choose from.... in another country for example 'turkey' - it is much easier.... arriving at the dasas requires a specific time and committing to a specific chart for the usa, opens up the same can of worms due how many charts their are for the usa..

yes, ken bowser is very upfront about his bias and i like and respect him for this... he is fairly generous with his time and shares much of his work publicly which i also really appreciate... both therese and i have discussed his work here at skyscript in the past and are grateful for all of this... i was quite fascinated with his work on mundane aspects and created a thread talking about that here on skyscript somewhere... it is a way of looking at the chart that is generally overlooked by many astrologers and in the past year, i found looking into this quite fascinating... cheers!

SadgeSun, thanks for the quotes from Gurmeet Singh and Kenneth Bowser. I've been interested in Gurmeet Singh's work since he uses the same nakshatra system that I do. I was encouraged when I saw his name on Mark's Kamala Harris win list as he has so much experience and fame of a sort working with so many clients in the Los Angeles area. He, like so many, must have been shocked at the Trump sweep on election night. Singh wrote a small book, Relationship Compatibility Astrology For Love, Intimacy and Business.

Solar Returns and Enneads: Birthplace or Relocation?

James wrote:
.

.. thanks for sharing your work as i do think it is quite a fascinating consideration - enneads...

Hi James,
Initially I was discouraged at the performance of enneads for the election until I saw that the problem was in my interpretation bias and not in the charts themselves. There is no doubt that relocating Kamala Harris inauguration ennead to Washington very much muddied the prediction waters. In that ennead her Sun goes to the top of the chart. Now, just looking at the inauguration BIRTHPLACE charts for Trump and Harris, any student astrologer would say that Trump had the superior chart. Here are the two charts again:



What could be more clear than Trump's natal Sun, Rahu and Uranus at the MC of the ennead?! And ennead Jupiter is elevated in the chart. Ennead Venus with the Moon conjoins natal Part of Fortune, Venus trine the MC. Mercury at the IC conjunct natal Moon no doubt indicates the move to the White House as Trump's new home. One wonders about Ketu below the ascendant and Neptune on cusp 7, but that is another topic. For career, natal Sun dominates Trump's inauguration ennead.

Now looking at Kamala Harris' BIRTHPLACE inauguration ennead:



The most angular transiting planets in this chart are Pluto above the ascendant opposed by Mars, the same two planets that dominated Harris' election ennead. One cold perhaps make a case for Sun and Mercury widely conjunct the zenith point, but in comparison to Trump's inauguration ennead this is a pale configuration. In Harris' chart no planets conjoin the MC; transiting Mars in Cancer trines the MC.

Moon at the nadir: A home move away from Washington.

As reiterated over and over by Fagan school siderealists, the first priority in interpretation is to focus on the angles of a chart, planets located there and sometimes planets in major aspect to those points. So, James, I hope you will continue to consider ennead charts worthy of further study!

hi therese

working with relocated charts is a tough call!! i have been a huge fan of them most of my life and admire the work jim lewis did in this area and have read a number of books on the subject and have to admit i really would like them to work!! however i have been influenced the past few years via charaks views on this topic and on my own conclusions on my own solar returns which involve the one's from where i was born and the one's where i live - over 3000 miles away from my birth place... i still think both charts have merit, but if i had to pick only one to work with - it would be predictive charts off the natal... i don't like saying this, because i really want to believe the relocated charts are more relevant... i am not sure why i want to believe this - maybe it's because i feel it ought to make more sense to connect where i actually am, as opposed to where i was born..

the focus on the angles - i have gotten that over the years and spending an undue amount for jim eshelmans solar returns book more recently, which was another reinforcement on this key observation - the angles are paramount!! no objection from me on any of that!!

i am happy to see you are posting again and able to share charts and etc.. i regret i still don't have my solar fire prog on my mainframe computer yet, after i updated this ubuntu thing about a year and 1/2 ago... it is tricky running a program meant for windows or apple on an open source computer.. i had a friend do this for me, and they are now living in seattle.. i might go down their with my computer and get them to put it back on this thing!! until then, i am not easily able to look at any ennead charts... cheers..