Skyscript Astrology Forum

Posted: **Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:17 pm**

My question is:
Does it help on your judgement of natal charts if you learn horary first, then judgement of nativities?

I've been practicing how to read natal charts for some time. And my focus had been on nativities related books until recently, when I got to know from some astrologer that the subject hierarchy of traditional astrology began with horary and elections, then nativities, then mundane subjects etc.

I am kind of buy-in this idea. It makes sense to me as horary and election are talking about one question one time, while nativities are the possibilities of answers to many questions in one chart. Also in Lily's three books, after the basics in Book I, he started with horary in Book II and nativities in Book III. I noticed similar sequence in other astrologers' books too.

However, I am hesitating to throw away all my nativities books right now and jump into a new subject (horary) before I master the one I learned half-way (nativities). And I don't think I have enough time to cover the two subjects at the same time, too.

So I am posting this question here and wondering how do you balance your learning on these two subjects?

Hope this question doesn't sounds ridiculous to you all~
thanks

Posted: **Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:22 pm**

nope, it is not ridiculous at all
but it can?t be really answered as everyone is different.
I personally took my time to learn horary before natal, electional or mundane.

The advantage that I see is not technical but psychological. When people learn horary first, they learn how to focus on the question at hand; to compare astrology with real life; to apply astrology into real life and real decisions.

Of course, this is only a generalization: there are people who learn horary first and are lousy astrologers, etc, you got the idea :-)

Posted: **Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:32 pm**

Hi Dana,

This is a good question and as such there will be some disagreement, but you can take it all in and decide for yourself.

I think learning horary first is a great idea. It is true that there are a lot of fine natal astrologers who are not at all knowledgeable about horary, and therefore it must be true that one can learn to read nativities without benefit of horary, but it does not follow that there are no benefits to learning horary first.

Astrology seems to have a hierarchy of sorts. Horary and its opposite, elections, are among the simplest forms, although elections are a bit more involved once we introduce the nativity to that process. In horary the astrologer usually only uses a few planets to unravel the answer to a single question.

Natal astrology is next on the hierarchy and all planets are used to unravel the life - a much more complicated task than working with a single question. If, after learning horary and working with many horary charts, the astrologer is going to find working with the nativity that much less daunting as he or she is familiar with all the planets and their meanings. They may be used differently, but, for example, Mars is Mars in a horary chart or a nativity.

Finally the most complex astrology is mundane. Unlike natal astrology which uses the nativity and a few subsequent charts like revolutions, the mundane astrologer works with many charts, all of which need to be delineated properly in order to make intelligent judgments.

So the hierarchy then is from somewhat simple to very complex. It seems logical to begin with the simple and progress from there rather than try to learn the more complicated techniques first.

Please don't misunderstand. When I say that horary is simple, I do not mean it is simple minded. I mean only that it is simpler to use a few planets than it is to use all of them. A fine horary astrologer needs to have a full command of the planets and houses just as a natal astrologer needs that knowledge. Some of Lilly's better horaries are anything but simple. I'm only discussing the learning process, not the completed work.

Don't sell Lilly short on his natal work either, as some contemporary astrologers do. That his natal work doesn't receive the attention it deserves is likely due to the exceptional achievement that his horary work represents.

Speaking of Lilly, it is also a good idea to read the chapter beginning on page 129 of CA where he gives a "life reading" or what amounts to a natal reading from a horary chart. It isn't exactly a natal delineation, but it is close.

Tom

Posted: **Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:49 pm**

Since you're already learning natal it certainly won't hurt to have that background when you get to horary. Don't throw the books away just yet.

I daresay a lot of the people here my age learnt modern natal before anything else, and still managed to bridge the gap. Traditional natal and traditional horary are based on the same principles, so you won't have that kind of problem - and bonus that you'll know your dignities, why partile is important, fixed stars, and all the other things you'll get from natal. It transfers to horary. The usual idea may be to start out with horary as it's simpler, but if you've already got halfway there by the long route, there's certainly no harm done.

And it helps tremendously to have a background in natal before you start doing electional. For example, if you're doing lots of wedding charts - and people do - you'll need to know what the transiting planets are doing to both his planets and her planets from their birth charts, as well as the aspects they're making in the electional chart itself.

Best -
Liv

Posted: **Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:23 pm**

I happened to start with traditional natal first, though not because of any great design. I started there because natal happened to present itself first.

I think it's beneficial to learn as may divisions as possible. It can only enhance things - not hurt.

Posted: **Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:59 am**

yuzuru wrote: Of course, this is only a generalization: there are people who learn horary first and are lousy astrologers, etc, you got the idea :-)

Thank you yuzuru, I got your idea, though I don't think you are one of those for I read your posts on those mysterious natal charts.

Mithra6 wrote:I happened to start with traditional natal first, though not because of any great design. I started there because natal happened to present itself first.

I think it's beneficial to learn as may divisions as possible. It can only enhance things - not hurt.

I actually jumped to the natal chapters on every book I could get, after finish reading the basics. I now knew why I couldn't improve my judgement skills, because I've missed out some other ingredients in the course.

--thanks Tom, I agree with you and it is a pity that Lily didn't get to the time he could share his natal skills in print, like John Gadbury did.
And thanks for pointing out the horary page I skipped in my previous reading on Lily's. I'd go over those horary pages again, soon.

thanks Olivia for sharing your learning experience too. And it is an interesting idea to me by practicing electional on weddings.

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:21 am**

Some authors had spread the idea that Horary should be learned first. In fact, some horary rules dont apply to natal charts et al, but Yuzuru nailed right when he said that psychologically is better: On doing this (i.e., learning horary first) you learn to focus your attention. And that is the principle: Saturn rules many things in your natal chart, but you cant mix every thing it simbolizes. Delineate him first as a ruler of a house you are investigating, like you proceed in horary. And so with the other planets.

The differences between horary and natal Astrology are remarkable in one sure point: Natal astrology has many significators of a single thing . Traditionally, my father is simbolized by the Sun, Saturn, the fourth house, the ruler of the fourth house, the lot of the father, and so on. Far from turning the practice complicated, having many significators is good because you can delineate many aspects of your father's life. Horary Astrology usually gets one significator of the thing quesited.

But do not let this authors fool you. Indeed, there are huge diferences. Mixing both would be terrible. And I am not talking about Mashallah's rules in the book On Reception, because they work on every type of chart, be it natal, mundane or horary. (I must confess sometimes they work for me only in horary...)

Posted: **Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:54 pm**

A late "thank you" to Rodd as I hadn't follow the post for quite a while.
Quoted "And that is the principle: Saturn rules many things in your natal chart, but you cant mix every thing it simbolizes. "

---I guess you mean it as "for example Saturn rules many things in your natal chart"?

As of Mashallah, I am still trying to convince myself into reading his works and his contemporaries'. Please don't take it personally, it is just some kind of weird feeling of mine to people lived in those centuries.

Anyway, practice makes things perfect and only practice can help you get what is true or not true, so am I trying.

Posted: **Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 pm**

Hello Steven, sorry for late reply but I really appreciated your effort to share learning experience with an apprentice like me.

As to the question "what you want to do with astrology",
I have an energy-consuming job, quite often I can't get some sleep after long hours working overtime.What I can do is to pick up an astrology book and keep my brain exercised "the other way around", then I can fall asleep in good dreams. It sounds strange, but works for me. Also I only read charts from others, but never read for them. So I have to say that I can't make a three-year plan or alike for my learning on astrology and can only take it as a hobby for the time being.

Well, take it as a hobby doesn't mean I don't take this subject seriously. As I haven't read enough traditional works, nor do I practice long enough, so I posted my question in the first place that I don't know if I shall use horary skills and if I overused them in natal reading.

Taking below natal chart as an example that a unknown female posted her information on a BBS, aksing for things that the 5th, 6th and 7th houses stand for, "future children, husband, money"...all the usual topics.
:-)
There was one person read her chart and gave her sweet words, saying that her mutual reception Mars and Venus is postive to those things that she concerned in the 5th, 6th and 7th.

I posted the natal chart information, not asking you to read for her. But examples like this keep me wondering how far shall I go and use mutual reception in natal charts reading? Especially such a Mars in 6th house and opposite to north node, can he be a linkage for the rest of planets over the years? I doubt it.

Born in 1987, female natal chart
using Janus 4, whole signs house system

ASC 21Taurus 34'
MC 2 Aquarius11'

in 5th house, is
Moon, 17 Virgo 1'

in 6th house,are
Sun 25 Libra 30'
Mars 6 Libra 50'

in 7th house, are
Venus 10 Scorpio 41'
Mercury 12 Scorpio 42' (retrograde)

in 8th house, is
Saturn, 17 Sagittarius 22'

in 12thhouse, is
Jupiter 24 Aries 33' (retrograde)

Anyhow, thanks a million for your reply in this post.
And I will explore if your way of "Over the last 9 years I probably have done no more than around 300 natal charts." works for me in finding those answers that puzzled me.

Skyscript Astrology Forum

judgement of nativities and horary

judgement of nativities and horary