Skyscript Astrology Forum

I have an interesting solar return chart for this year. However, everything changes (I mean pretty much) on whether you do precession correction or not. So which one should I use?

I looked at my precessed solar return for 2003, which was a rather tragic year for me, and found Mars and Saturn on my ASC/DESC axis, which could be indicative of the year that I had. The year wasn't that formidable if you took the non-precessed version.

Any comments? Thanks.

Hi Taurus,

I have done much research with Solar Returns. It has been my experience that precession free (Sidereal) or precession adjusted (Tropical) Solar Returns are the proper timing method to cast a Solar Return. Both methods offer the correct placement of the angles and moon.

Taurus wrote:
I looked at my precessed solar return for 2003, which was a rather tragic year for me, and found Mars and Saturn on my ASC/DESC axis, which could be indicative of the year that I had. The year wasn't that formidable if you took the non-precessed version.

Exactly my point Taurus! The Mars-Saturn on your 2003 Solar Return ASC/DESC axis is dead-on symbolism for your ?rather tragic year?. Without allowing for precession the Mars-Saturn symbolism would not have fallen on your ASC/DESC axis. The most powerful celestial position of a planet is on the angles.

Regards, Steve

Hi Taurus

As you put the question on the traditional forum, I imagine you are expecting an answer about the traditional view on precession.

I never found any reference to precession in traditional astrology. Someone said to me that Justinus proposed it, but I don?t have an original source. But the oldest source that I have is Abu Mashar and he will not say anything about it.

Anyway, no matter the origin, modern astrology embraced it together with solar returns for location of living, not birth, conversed solar returns, progressed solar returns (solar returns for the position of progressed sun), etc, etc.

In my opinion the whole precession is completely desnecessary. If you use a tropical system, there is no precession, this is the essence of the tropical system, 2 taurus is 2 taurus! You don?t need to worry that "the stars moved". They don?t move. The aries point is determined by the ecliptic with equator only.

If you want to use a sidereal system, by all means use it, but in a sidereal system there is no use in precessing the solar returns also.

In fact, I belive this is the one point that I agree with Liz Greene.

Since we are discussing SR, about relocation, anyone can help saying what is the oldest source that mentions it? I know Morin took it into consideration, so I guess the idea came before him... or was him the conceiver?

PFN wrote:Since we are discussing SR, about relocation, anyone can help saying what is the oldest source that mentions it? I know Morin took it into consideration, so I guess the idea came before him... or was him the conceiver?

Tommaso Campanella said something like that in order to avoid consequences of bad astral configurations.

Maybe he was not directly talking SR - maybe something like eclipses or comets in the natal chart- but the idea surely is that.

I will give a look,
margherita

yuzuru wrote:Anyway, no matter the origin, modern astrology embraced it together with solar returns for location of living, not birth,

I was wondering for awhile which should be used but traditionally a solar return and other techniques (like directions) should thus always be used with the place of birth? It sure makes a lot of thing much easier, either practical or theoretical.

In my opinion the whole precession is completely desnecessary. If you use a tropical system, there is no precession, this is the essence of the tropical system, 2 taurus is 2 taurus! You don?t need to worry that "the stars moved". They don?t move. The aries point is determined by the ecliptic with equator only.

If you want to use a sidereal system, by all means use it, but in a sidereal system there is no use in precessing the solar returns also.

This seems the most logic to me, it's either tropical or sidereal that is to be used.

Regarding relocation, I've switched from the current location to the birth location. Round and round I went until I wore myself out banging my head against the wall trying to decide. What helped me choose the birth location was keeping in mind that it concerns a return ? a revolution, in the old terminology. That means it involves a cycle. I came to realize that a true cycle would need to begin and end not only at the same zodiacal location, but also at the same geographical location. If a cycle starts 'here' it can't very well end and start anew 'over there' to form a true cycle. The relocated return chart could perhaps also be used in conjunction as a less effective, but meaningful chart. But I would always start with the birth location. I'll have nothing to do with the silliness of flying off to Topeka, Kansas for a a birthday getaway in order to have a favorable return chart. All you end up with are memories of Topeka.

If I wanted to compare an event chart to a natal chart I would use the current location due to the fact that a cycle isn't being considered.

Kirk wrote:I'll have nothing to do with the silliness of flying off to Topeka, Kansas for a a birthday getaway in order to have a favorable return chart. All you end up with are memories of Topeka.

That's my problem with relocation and prognostication. It would appear that 'fate' can be manipulated simply by going somewhere else. The same issue applies with directions.

By the way, here I found a thread where relocation was discussed.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

Since we are discussing SR, about relocation, anyone can help saying what is the oldest source that mentions it? I know Morin took it into consideration, so I guess the idea came before him... or was him the conceiver?

I haven't found a source older than Morin, but if there is one, it is in Abu Mashar's book on revolutions. That may not be the oldest source but it is, to my knowledge the oldest source that treats the subject in depth. I'm on vacation so I don't have access to my copy to find out.

While I tend to agree that it seems absurd to run somewhere and stand around waiting for the Sun to impart it's influence on me on my birthday, I've done a lot of solar returns lately the the ones cast for the location at the time of the return do seem to work better. That is hardly a scientific sampling however.

Tom

I searched a little in Tommaso Campanella.

As I wrote in my previous post he does not openly mention Solar Return, but I believe he wants to mention a more general rule.

In De siderali fato vitando, he explains several ways to avoid sidereal fate.

He writes:

"when the time of the event is ready, year, month, day of the direction, progression and transit of the star from which it depends, these three factors of the sky which are in agreement - especially if we add the eclipse or the comet- and others from whom is receiving them, age, temperament, season, and place and food and profession, then it will be the moment of avoid the evil and search the good. "

"when promissor direction is ready according the indication of radix, then you should fly the event. "

"Fated particular events could be avoided with ease, so the astrologer when he does see a shipwreck, he will not sail."


"When an eclipse will occur in the place you live and if the malefic stars are predominant and threat evil for the region, not for you, change region.... And if the eclipse is particular bad for you....in this case consider if the common evil is in agreement with the particular one. If so, you cannot avoid the evil but changing region. "

So I believe the spirit is the right one

Margherita

Tom wrote:

I've done a lot of solar returns lately the the ones cast for the location at the time of the return do seem to work better.

I was thinking about that, and it got me to thinking about something Frawley said about solar returns. The chart cast for the location shows only the influences the native would receive at that location, but the chart cast for the birthplace shows everything in the year, albeit more broadly, or something like that. Don't go quoting me.

I do have Morin's book 23 with me and I was looking at that. He discusses in some depth the solar and lunar returns for King Gustav Adolphus of Sweden for the year that he died (in combat). Morin uses the locations of the King at the time of the returns. I did about 20 minutes of desktop research and confirmed that the King was in those locations at the time of the returns. Death is a pretty singular event and it happens at one location. A chart cast for Stockholm is quite a bit different than a chart cast for Nurnberg (about 15 or so degrees difference in the ASC 8 degrees or so on the MC) for two charts I cast for the same time.

The King's nativity has several indications of an early, violent death, and he did die near the location of his final lunar return and not terribly far, if I recall correctly, from his final solar return nearly a year earlier. Therefore he fulfilled the potential of the returns and the nativity. This is not to say that he would not have died if he stayed home, but his chances of being killed in combat were a good deal less in his castle than on a battlefield, and, the main point his returns would have been different.

How different? Well the house cusps would be different and therefore the rulership of the planets would be different, but the planets would still be in the same places by longitude regardless of where he spent his returns. Morin spends more time on the aspects of the planets in the returns to the planets in the radix than anything else, but the rulerships count. If an early death is indicated, and the radical ruler of the 8th is also the ruler of the 8th in the return, this is highly significant. But if the radical ruler of death rules the 5th of children in the return, it is less so and may, other factors participating, indicate the death of a child or romance or creative endeavor. I don't think running to the spot where the radical ruler of the 8th is in adverse aspect to the ruler of the 7th and then running back home, will kill off an an enemy however.

Morin believed that some sort of "influx" of influence occurred to the native at the time of the return. Therefore, the return should be cast for the location at the time of the return. I don't believe any such "influx" occurs and I doubt very many people do believe that. But what I'm thinking is that the return location should be used if the native is going to spend a great deal of time at that location during the return period, i.e. a year for the solar return or a month for the lunar return. So if you are born in New York, but you now live in Colorado, then perhaps it would be better to cast your returns for Colorado. But if you happen to be in an airport in San Francisco while awaiting a plane home at the time of your return, that might be looked at, but it probably isn't very influential.

Tom

Thank you all for the answers so far...

My personal position is slightly favorable to relocation. The reason is that I believe that, if a natal chart is cast for the location you were born, then the place where an event takes place is relevant for the process that unfolds. It's the very relationship between the moment x place of birth that results in the chart. So I do not see why it would be different with a SR chart, since, theoretically, you could predict a change of place for the person. The SR is nothing more than a cycle, if this cycle completes somewhere else, it means that the promisse contained within that cycle was meant for that place (Sun conjunction Sun, the birth of a new year) so I see no reason to not use a relocated chart.

When they say that you can "change" your fate by going somewhere else, I do not take that literally, since you going somewhere else can be predicted as well. If nothing else, we should work with the reality of the person, and the reality is that everyone would be subject to the place it is. That would also explain why two persons born at the same moment (if this miracle really did happen) do not share the same fate. They could share the same "moment", but is impossible to share the same space (although that falls on the reign of a "micro-astrology" if that even exists, and you would need somewhat of an ideal sample to even begin to test this, and I doubt it is workable from an astrological perspective, given the limitations of the astrological model itself).