Skyscript Astrology Forum

By numbering our days, we are made aware of the fact that our lives are truly like the grass of the field that is here today and gone tomorrow. For some people, this kind of information motivates humility and spurs loving actions to live one?s life fully in the service of others and God. For other people, it is a further excuse to ?live like hell? selfishly ? eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! While I believe this knowledge is a gift of God, like everything in the world, it can be used for good or evil. Therefore, we do have to be very discriminate with this teaching. I still have to spend time in prayer seeking wisdom in how to share these kinds of things.

This passage is from Steven Birchfield's article in the ISCA's blog, on the topic of longevity techniques.

I sometimes ponder about whether it is right to expose a lot of astrological information to the public for free. As Birchfield mentioned above, the knowledge can be used for good or evil. Part of this contemplation was sparked by the prayers and disclaimers found in Maternus' and Valens' books. I believe that both authors discouraged the receivers of the books from freely sharing the information contained in it. This also reminds me a of a movie I watched, where the Internet, though very useful, when misused, can become an effective tool for libel or slander.

I am an explicit kind of person, so whenever I write something, I will include all the details I had in mind (well, aside from potentially sensitive information). Obviously, this would include providing quotes from ancient astrologers. Many people do that anyway, but I am really on the more extreme side. So...sometimes I wonder whether this can have dangerous consequences moving forward.

Some professional astrologers charge a rather hefty fee (from my personal perspective, but probably cuz I'm poor) for the information they provide. Part of this is of course, in order to support their own livelihoods, and considering the demand and supply of such expertise. But I am beginning to think that another major reason for this is to ward off people who may abuse the divine knowledge. (Note: I don't think these experts should lower their price, I am merely making an observation).

Of course, one can object by saying that, astrologers are just following what professionals do in other fields. A doctor's service isn't cheap, nor is a lawyer's fee a small amount. But I think it is especially relevant for our field, because we are occultists in the first place, known for hiding or obscuring information. Perhaps the reason is valid.

What are your thoughts on this, guys?



Note: I am not talking only about longevity techniques, but astrological information in general.

in answer to your question on a simple level..

reservations are for reserved people... everyone has to express themselves in the way they best feel suits them... ultimately if valens or robert hand just to use 2 examples - thought they would be wise to not share any insight they had - we would be less of a community for it. to me - forums, books, conversations and etc. etc., are the essence of our ability to go beyond ourselves and grow a community of people sharing in the knowledge we gain from our experiences.. count me as a person who will share what i can on what i love - astrology and music being 2 of my lifelong interests..

i read your post when you first posted it and was very curious to see if someone would respond to it and what they would say.. the silence is interesting here.. i am not sure what to make of it.. someone mentioned that zukerberg from facebook ought to rename it ANTISOCIAL NETWORK.. i tend to agree with this person's viewpoint.. that said, a pm conversation suggested that is where some of the conversation has gone over to... i don't like fb and a number of things about it.. here is the video of the person saying this which is ot but i think worth sharing.. cheers james
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Rl8EIhrQjQ

First off, if we had a "like" button here, I would have hit it on your post, James.

I just didn't find the time earlier to reply to your interesting query, Larxene. But it looks like I can't go to bed without doing so.

Larxene wrote:I sometimes ponder about whether it is right to expose a lot of astrological information to the public for free. As Birchfield mentioned above, the knowledge can be used for good or evil. Part of this contemplation was sparked by the prayers and disclaimers found in Maternus' and Valens' books. I believe that both authors discouraged the receivers of the books from freely sharing the information contained in it.

Well, charging high fees for information doesn't necessarily keep its wealthy receivers from abusing it, does it?

This also reminds me a of a movie I watched, where the Internet, though very useful, when misused, can become an effective tool for libel or slander.

Yes, like any other media. Great spiritual teachers from Gautama Buddha to Djwal Khul always caution seekers to accept nothing (including their own lores) at face value but only what holds true in light of their intuition and experience. What is true for one person may be false for another. The ability to discriminate is indeed part of what ought to be learned on the way to one's true self.

I am an explicit kind of person, so whenever I write something, I will include all the details I had in mind (well, aside from potentially sensitive information). Obviously, this would include providing quotes from ancient astrologers. Many people do that anyway, but I am really on the more extreme side. So...sometimes I wonder whether this can have dangerous consequences moving forward.

The great French esotericist Papus said that one need not be afraid to say too much as people who wouldn't be ready for the knowledge shared simply wouldn't be able to comprehend it. Along these lines, a great alchemist once said that he was explaining the Great Work openly to a group of people he was dining with but none of them had a clue what he was talking about.

Aforesaid Djwal Khul stated that it's esoterically wrong to withhold information that would be of benefit to so many. Likewise, Rudolf Steiner said that in our modern times esoteric knowledge needs to be disseminated.

Other occultists were not so liberal-minded and even harshly attacked colleagues who were communicating "secret knowledge" to larger circles.

What often came into play, imo, is less a concern about innocent people's well-fare but rather about their own secret societies' elitist status.

Some professional astrologers charge a rather hefty fee (from my personal perspective, but probably cuz I'm poor) for the information they provide. Part of this is of course, in order to support their own livelihoods, and considering the demand and supply of such expertise.

All right, there may be a certain validity to this one.

Note: I am not talking only about longevity techniques, but astrological information in general.

I'm not sure what astrological knowledge should be seen as particularly dangerous.

Hello james,

james_m wrote:reservations are for reserved people... everyone has to express themselves in the way they best feel suits them...

I do agree that most people will take actions that are illustrative of their character, that's just part of their fate. However, I am rather thinking of whether we should do whatever it is that we are inclined to do. If we have even a shred of rationality, we should probably think about our own actions, whether they are justifiable or not. (For example, recently the news at my place are just full of murder stories...these people are probably inclined to such actions, but SHOULD they do it?)

james_m wrote:ultimately if valens or robert hand just to use 2 examples - thought they would be wise to not share any insight they had - we would be less of a community for it.

Well, Valens did advise his student to share the book only with those the student trusts, and those who are deemed worthy of the knowledge. In those days the astrological schools tried to keep their teachings secret. The fact that Valens gave many examples is to teach his students, whom he judged to be capable of using the knowledge well (i.e. not abusing it). It's available to us now because there have been attempts to revive the tradition. Valens may not have thought that 2000 years later, his books would be widely circulated.

james_m wrote:i read your post when you first posted it and was very curious to see if someone would respond to it and what they would say.. the silence is interesting here.. i am not sure what to make of it.. someone mentioned that zukerberg from facebook ought to rename it ANTISOCIAL NETWORK.. i tend to agree with this person's viewpoint.. that said, a pm conversation suggested that is where some of the conversation has gone over to... i don't like fb and a number of things about it.. here is the video of the person saying this which is ot but i think worth sharing.. cheers james
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Rl8EIhrQjQ

Hmm, not sure I got your point but okay. I don't use facebook and other social networks. High maintenance and time-wasting. That was a cool video. I kind of agree with his premise. Everywhere, I see couples and friends meeting up in shops and cafes, but most of the time they are looking at their smart-phones! People might as well date their phones, or THROUGH their smart-phones, instead of physically meeting up. It defeats the purpose if you're always looking at your phone instead of looking at each other.



Note: I am not suggesting that we do not share anything at all. I just think that perhaps one needs to find a balance between what to share, and what to keep secret.



Hi Michael,

Michael Sternbach wrote:Well, charging high fees for information doesn't necessarily keep its wealthy receivers from abusing it, does it?

Yes, but it does prevent some people from accessing the information. Besides that, the rich (hmm, upper-middle class and above perhaps) probably do not need as much astrological insight to do what they want. Money alone is powerful enough for many things.

Michael Sternbach wrote:The great French esotericist Papus said that one need not be afraid to say too much as people who wouldn't be ready for the knowledge shared simply wouldn't be able to comprehend it. Along these lines, a great alchemist once said that he was explaining the Great Work openly to a group of people he was dining with but none of them had a clue what he was talking about.

I certainly hope so. I suppose if one speaks in riddles or expresses values vastly different from one's audience, that would happen.

Michael Sternbach wrote:Aforesaid Djwal Khul stated that it's esoterically wrong to withhold information that would be of benefit to so many. Likewise, Rudolf Steiner said that in our modern times esoteric knowledge needs to be disseminated.

I don't disagree...

Michael Sternbach wrote:Other occultists were not so liberal-minded and even harshly attacked colleagues who were communicating "secret knowledge" to larger circles.

What often came into play, imo, is less a concern about innocent people's well-fare but rather about their own secret societies' elitist status.

I think that is certainly part of their consideration, and also so that their expertise would not become moot. However, sometimes, if one shares too freely, the information may be defiled instead of being used for good. For example, a person who has not studied astrology may attempt to demonstrate through a few charts that a certain technique doesn't work, making others sceptical of it. What if some experts are able to make it work, and indeed the technique is very useful? But because the people become not receptive to it, the technique goes to waste.

Larxene wrote:I sometimes ponder about whether it is right to expose a lot of astrological information to the public for free.
(...)
I am an explicit kind of person, so whenever I write something, I will include all the details I had in mind (well, aside from potentially sensitive information). (..)
So...sometimes I wonder whether this can have dangerous consequences moving forward.

Hi Larxene, good topic!

My personal opinion is that the only way for a body of knowledge to move forward very fast is if it is being widely spread. Take for instance modern technology (computers, smartphones, etc): that industry is moving very fast, with new techniques, businesses, and knowledge being created every other day, mainly because it is reaching many people.

The same could be said for astrology. My personal opinion (again) is that it would move forward very fast if it was more widespread. The more people gets to use and test astrology, the faster we find what works and what doesn't, and the faster we move on.

So, intrinsically, every time each of us publish or share astrological techniques and information, we are contributing to move it forward. In this way, if you are the type of person which likes to share information (not personal one, as you said), by all means, keep on doing it.

Larxene wrote: Some professional astrologers charge a rather hefty fee (from my personal perspective, but probably cuz I'm poor) for the information they provide. Part of this is of course, in order to support their own livelihoods, and considering the demand and supply of such expertise. But I am beginning to think that another major reason for this is to ward off people who may abuse the divine knowledge.

I agree that people should get paid for their work. But, sometimes, sharing information and making a living are not opposed.

Take for instance bloggers: some make a living just by sharing information. Take also free, open-source software: some companies do make a living by giving away things for free. It seems a paradox, but they seem to do it. FAcebook, for instance, has lots of open source projects given for free: https://code.facebook.com/projects/.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced at all that people do not share information because of someone may abuse the "divine". At least not many, I hope.. But however they are, they are doing a disservice to astrology, by not contributing to its body of knowledge.

I guess that there are three types of people in astrology: Enthusiasts, Professionals, and Professionally-enough Enthusiasts. I guess that those more to the "enthusiasm" side of the spectrum believe in the benefits of information share.

Larxene wrote:But I think it is especially relevant for our field, because we are occultists in the first place, known for hiding or obscuring information. Perhaps the reason is valid.

I think we are as much as "occultists" as the people in the 16th century which already knew that it was the earth that revolved around the sun; or as the ones that believed the Earth was round when everybody thought otherwise..

What is unknown today, may be known tomorrow. And most things are just things from the natural world, not "occult", "divine", "whatever", but just "natural" and part of the world.

I don't believe at all that we are "occultists" by being enthusiastic about astrology. I prefer to think that we are on the cutting-edge of knowledge. In this way, we can cut the cr@p and get right to the point..


Jo?o Ventura

Thanks for your response, Joao. I will think about it.

This field is "self secret" by nature. Do you understand the mind of God? We can only understand so much and therefore the astrology that is available now is only a tiny sliver of understanding even for the most advanced technician. Don't forget that well over 90% of everything that was ever written on the subject is lost (due to various fires such as the one at the library of Alexandria, etc)... Do what you can to try to enlighten, the majority will still be in the dark regardless of what you do because of stubbornness, pride, sloth, etc... hamartia due to agnoia runs rampant. We live in a world where idiots are sure of themselves and the wise have doubts.

Hi Curtis,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this matter. Hmm, I suppose at this point in time astrology may not be easily abused, because as you say, most of the information is either not available or not readily available (language barriers, lacunae, etc). Currently I am of the opinion that most things can be shared freely, but for certain techniques we need to be more discerning in how we share it.



Larxene Xenohart

Larxene wrote:Hi Curtis,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this matter. Hmm, I suppose at this point in time astrology may not be easily abused, because as you say, most of the information is either not available or not readily available (language barriers, lacunae, etc). Currently I am of the opinion that most things can be shared freely, but for certain techniques we need to be more discerning in how we share it.

Larxene Xenohart

What isn't known isn't abused, but what is known has already been abused and rendered this subject not worthy of consideration by many. What is known stays secret for its own sake, otherwise there will be those who seek to destroy it. The recent flap in Hellenistic serves as a case in point, particularly by the reaction of the "modern school" in the 90's. I always wondered why it was impossible to find astrology texts in public libraries back in the 1970's.

"I always wondered why it was impossible to find astrology texts in public libraries back in the 1970's."

I know several librarians who explained the reason for this as being that astrological books are the ones that most often get stolen, (or "not returned").

james_m wrote:that said, a pm conversation suggested that is where some of the conversation has gone over to... i don't like fb and a number of things about it.. here is the video of the person saying this which is ot but i think worth sharing.. cheers james
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Rl8EIhrQjQ

Just a small offtopic comment, but I really liked the video!

<rant>
And I fell sorry for some people migrating to facebook and not participating in this forum anymore. There's no way facebook can ever replace forums, at least as facebook stands now. In facebook you don't have editing options as here, you can't write bold, italic, underlined, you can't quote people to contextualize your answers, you can't put images inline with the text, you can't change sizes to make things as titles, no changing colors or make a list.

There you are really quite limited to short answers. There's no way one can advance astrology using responses such as as "LOL", "OMG", "ROFL", whatever.

People may have moved to facebook, but the "discussion-ability" remains here.. Now, as a marketing platform, Facebook is king, because you don't need people to discuss your posts deeply! It is a ad-based platform, only the number of "eyes" matter, not the quality of answers..
</rant>



Jo?o Ventura

Deb wrote:"I always wondered why it was impossible to find astrology texts in public libraries back in the 1970's."

I know several librarians who explained the reason for this as being that astrological books are the ones that most often get stolen, (or "not returned").

That is correct. I've heard that too. (think about what that says about the kind of people borrowing those texts)