Skyscript Astrology Forum

If something negative happens just before/during/right after a Saturn Return does it mean the person having the return didn't respond to lessons Saturn had for them, or is it because of the cosmically determined condition of Saturn in the natal chart and the person had no control over anything even from before birth?

On Facebook this morning someone posted a link to the eight writing tips of novelist Kurt Vonnegut (its the anniversary of his birthday today; he was born 11 November 1922).
http://writerswrite.co.za/kurt-vonnegut ... r-for-2088

Number 6 is:

Be a Sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them-in order that the reader may see what they are made of.

So let's suppose that Saturn's humbling experience is about teaching lessons. Maybe it is not so much about what has already been done, but how we deal with difficulties in the here and now.

hi stellertiggy,

it's a good question. i see it more as a philosophical question.. do you believe in cause and effect ( karma for some), or is there an alternative way of viewing events that happen in a different framework? deb has answered your question in the here and now.. sorting out whether an event is based on some past action seems counterproductive to me. i like deb's response as it stays focused on the moment without looking for an explanation of the 'why' in the past.

i also relate to what tom says. if we are only looking at transits for an explanation on the 'why now' question, i think we are ignoring other ways an event might be interpreted astrologically..

the 'first' saturn return is a completion of one saturn cycle.. i think of it as a structure building exercise, but more importantly a learning activity which is always ongoing. people build structures for different reasons, but security and protection is an important part of it.. just how we learn to live with fear, or whether fear has an undue influence on our actions - all of this is how i would see saturn building walls to protect us, or prevent us from being able to engage with others in a positive way.

perhaps some difficult event can happen at the time of the saturn return, but i would hypothesize this happening when saturn is in some difficult relationship at birth with other planets in the chart.. a saturn/venus conjunction or square at birth with saturn in the 7th house would be similar to the example you provided.. in this case saturns lesson might be that no matter how much we try to protect ourselves from the unpredictability of life and events thru saturn, events will still come to teach us lessons that we are meant to experience and grow from. a saturn return is different for everyone and although generalizations might work to an extent, they are going to be completely different for everyone..

StellarTiggy wrote:I know how a Saturn Return goes depends largely on how you handle the lessons Saturn is trying to teach us. It also depends on Saturn's condition on the natal, sect, and other transits, timelords. But let's say something bad happens during/around the return, like the spouse having an affair. Would this mean the person did not heed Saturn's lessons and acted negligently toward their partner, and so Saturn has brought with it an affair to teach the person the consequences of their behavior? I can't think of another example because I wanted to discuss the lessons/consequences paradigm.

Hi Stellar Tiggy,

Quite frankly, the kind of language you are employing reminds me an awful lot of moralistic Christian preachers. It's also the language used by earlier occult orders, i.e. in Theosophy. Maybe that's where the notion came from that the planets are there to "teach us lessons"? And even though they sometimes seem to have such an effect, in my view it's not always so clear cut what - as that view implies - what is good and what is bad - things just are what they are, and who can tell where they eventually lead to. That's what a Daoist or Zen Buddhist would say. Now, that sounds quite like Saturn to me!

Personally, I don't recall any particular difficulties during my first (and so far last) Saturn return, even though in the aftermath some things went indeed quite haywire. But at that time there were other, more precise transits active (as they had been all along). Of course, they are all somehow interconnected, weaving a tapestry in time, as the events in our life unfold. Overall, I wouldn't weigh Saturn Returns more heavily than other major conjunctions.

Having natal Saturn sitting 1? above my Scorpio ascendant, being the exalted ruler of my Libra-Sun, I can testify to His Returns having quite some impact
At the 1st return, after having come quite near to comitting a passionate murder, lol (Venus also in Scorpio-1), the community we had lived and worked in for about 7 (!) yrs, broke up and I got for the 1st time really independent in my life.
At the 2nd return which - hellenistically speaking - started at Saturn's re-entrance in Scorpio in octobre 2012, I within 2 weeks lost 5 teeth and dental parts. Later in 2013, my eyesight dimmed and I had to take an eye-operation. Still trying to adjust to that...

So..., I guess (indeed, and I'd like to say "of course!") Saturn's natal position is of adamant importance in order to weigh the impact of His Return!

I have Libra Jupiter-Saturn conjunction on my AC. Exalted Saturn is exactly at on my AC at 3?. I have 0? Jupiter (critical planet).

I went through my 1st Saturn's return when T Saturn was in Libra. I'm not exactly sure if my Saturn's return would be what's "traditional" or "textbook" description, but mine was really action packed and they were all very deeply felt in somber ways at best, but depression was the order of the day. My peers who belonged to Libra Saturn generation did not have a merry ole time, either. All of them suffered separation of some sort. Some of them got married (some out of reluctance) because they felt pressured. Others wanted to get married badly and were desperately seeking their future spouse. As for me... I was trying to heal myself from being pulled into the very dark depths of hell.

I think it was quite busy because Libra Saturn is not only exalted, but because it's cardinal which means a lot of starts. Because it was not only my Saturn's return, but it also hit my ascendant/first house. Being that Libra Saturn is already cardinal but placed in the most powerful (angular) house- I felt every little painful thing there ever was. I felt like I got punched twice as hard, twice as much, and the pain lingered twice as long.


First, I went through divorce so that was devastating and yes, it felt like the world ended. I once had a loving relationship and then it went kaboom! as soon as the clock turned over to Libra Saturn.

Second, I learned to rely solely on myself and be self sufficient in as many ways as possible- I got through my divorce all on my own and the help of making some friends. The friends I've made during this time period have served me well and continue to support me even now.

Third, I moved around quite a bit geographically (as in several hundred miles away) several times. It ended up where I decided to return to my hometown of Los Angeles so I could recuperate and get my bearings. During this time, I also traveled quite a bit and had gotten my passport all by myself (the first time was when my parents did that for me when I was a kid and we traveled a lot).

Fourth, my 1st cat from my early college days died. A major part of my childhood died with him as I buried my furry companion. That happened 1.5 years after my divorce and it hit me really hard.

Fifth, my looks changed...for the better! My face got leaner and I lost some babyish qualities about me. I dressed more mature and my mannerisms became more polished and suave. As I gained more confidence in my appearance, I also gain a stronger stance in the way I dealt with people. I use to bend over backwards for others and anyone who pushes me before, I would just step aside for them. During my return, I gained my "backbone," so to speak. Saturn rules the spine and mine got fortified both metaphorically (I stood up for myself and will fight others to the point of destroying of shattering them) and physically (I took a lot of yoga to strengthen my back and improve my posture).

Sixth, this maybe more related to the Saturn return hitting my natal Jupiter as it's also on my ascendant... but I went back to being a vegetarian (I was when I was a teenager). I stopped eating meat one day and just didn't go back to it. I rapidly lost about 15 pounds from my divorce and probably another 10 lbs from axing meat. At one point, I was at the same weight I was at high school graduation (119lbs).

Seventh, my insomnia got more powerful as I keep thinking of things endlessly. My sleep since the beginning of Libra Saturn (2009) has been sparingly and short. In my natal chart, 3? Libra Saturn square 29? Gemini Mercury, even though they trine by signs. AS if the square isn't bad enough to keep me preoccupied with all sorts of analytical thoughts, during my Saturn's return amplified me being more and more critical and sharp minded, sharp tongued, sharp knives. To this day, I cannot shake this. Saturn's return deepened mental abilities to realistically analyze every situation that's presented to be either in person or in theory.

Here is my chart...maybe it will help understand.

http://youtu.be/QBN7A2MRLYM?list=UUTfqv ... 6a9pAUV97g

Explained.

hi tom,

i have done it to my own chart a few years ago, but not for anyone else. with solar or lunar returns, you can see the results more immediately to be able to make associations. given the duration of a saturn return, it might be much harder to gauge the impact of the return. ps - i have 3 returns on the next one - direct, retro, direct. this is also something one doesn't have to process in a solar or lunar return.

How would we cast a chart for Saturn's return? Saturn stays at the same degree for quite some time and not only that, Saturn can retrograde. The luminaries don't retrograde and they don't stay in the same degree for a long time.